Back door hodor Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 In my opinion his actual strategy was better, he was winning enough victories in battle and had acquired significant prisoners, if the red wedding doesn't happen and he wins another battle or two in the west I honestly think he applies enough political pressure to sue for Sansa's release, even against a Lannister/Tryell alliance in the aftermath of the canon battle of Blackwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Back door hodor said: In my opinion his actual strategy was better, he was winning enough victories in battle and had acquired significant prisoners, if the red wedding doesn't happen and he wins another battle or two in the west I honestly think he applies enough political pressure to sue for Sansa's release, even against a Lannister/Tryell alliance in the aftermath of the canon battle of Blackwater. yeah, but well in the meantime Sansa is being abused.... and oh wait married to Tyrion so... ugh no, no political pressure would have gotten her out of that again imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back door hodor Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said: yeah, but well in the meantime Sansa is being abused.... and oh wait married to Tyrion so... ugh no, no political pressure would have gotten her out of that again imo Rob has no idea how Sansa is being treated, In fact his only experience with political prisoners is his father and Theon, so if he is using that as a comparison.... From his perspective he still has a legit chance to get his family back in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 45 minutes ago, Back door hodor said: Rob has no idea how Sansa is being treated, In fact his only experience with political prisoners is his father and Theon, so if he is using that as a comparison.... From his perspective he still has a legit chance to get his family back in my opinion I dunno, Joffrey executing Ned should have set off a red flag for Robb that Joffrey was dangerous because he could do whatever he wanted to those in his power and by extension, he could have Sansa executed on scant grounds. All the more reason to have her rescued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Back door hodor said: Rob has no idea how Sansa is being treated, In fact his only experience with political prisoners is his father and Theon, so if he is using that as a comparison.... From his perspective he still has a legit chance to get his family back in my opinion Oh come on, he can't be that stupid! They have just murdered his father, the Warden of the North, against their own best interests. He can't be sure about, what they'll do and he has experienced Joff himself. He know what a sadistic little shit he is, that gets off on humiliating others. For the Lannisters it's only important, that she stays alive. Maybe he likes to suppress that thought, but he must know, that the likelihood is very high, that his sisters are mistreated. Cat very quickly believes that Arya is probably already dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberynBlackfyre Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Robb was a great leader but lacked very much the political savvy of someone who needs to be a somewhat cosmopolitan King. It makes sense that essentially a River Lord was the one who perpetrated the Red Wedding with the covenants of a Western Lord. In the North the rule of hospitality is sacred because the North HAVE TO rely on each other at times. They are in a constant worry and war against Winter. So they have to be able to trust that when they need shelter, they can be safe. These kinds of things is somewhat creates the idea of honor and a word being your bond. The South doesn’t really have to honor this as fervently as their main battle is a war of resources with each other, hence why they rely on more political alliances and keeping each other sweet through manipulation and empowering those they ally with. Robb should have known that besmirching the honor of the Twins and then beheading Lord Karstark was going to lose him the war. His main goal should have been to get Sansa back- which i do believe the Starks could have hired an FM to do, or possibly have done it a la the Blood and Cheese route into the Red Keep. Or tried to make a proxy pact with Highgarden. I find it beyond strange that Robb didn’t focus on making marriage pacts right after being proclaimed KItN. It seems like the North is very very lacking when it comes to the importance of marriage pacts at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Everybody seems to be forgetting that rescuing Sansa is not a simple endeavor. Robb would have to select a team at least some of whom Sansa knows. (No reason to think she will go with strangers) This team would have to get into the Red Keep, access to which is tightly controlled. They would then have to find Sansa and get her alone (so the alarm doesn't immediately get given). And determine whether Arya is in the area. They then have to get her out of the (well-guarded) Red Keep without being detected. They have to get her out of Kings Landing, which is a walled city with limited access points. They have to escort a 12-year-old girl across a couple hundred miles of a warzone controlled by the enemy, while evading the intensive search that will undoubtedly be made. And if she is caught escaping, her situation is almost certainly going to be even worse than it was before. It should also be noted that Robb has Jaime as a hostage, thus ensuring that Sansa won't, at least, be killed out of hand. I would say that the risks involved way outweigh the possible gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, Nevets said: It should also be noted that Robb has Jaime as a hostage, thus ensuring that Sansa won't, at least, be killed out of hand. Joffrey wouldn't have cared; Ned Stark's execution showed that he could do whatever he pleased, consequences be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Robb should have sent two or three men undercover to KL to get information. Maybe a maester with ravens amongst them. He might thus have found out that Arya was missing and no longer hostage of the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Because Robb didn't care enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Eazy Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Hey everybody, ive lurked on this site for probably two years and the compulsion to respond to some posts in numerous topics was just too much. Happy to be here! This may be responding to more than the topic was specifically about but Robb already believed Arya was dead (he has this conversation with Catelyn) and imo he figured he would never see Sansa alive again. Even if he marched down to KL victoriously with an army. Imo he just begrudgingly accepted that as the situation. Sansa is not worth exchanging Jaime for - one of the greatest individual fighters in the 7k, a leader of armies, and the only suitable heir to Casterly Rock (this last point is something Robb himself probably didnt appreciate fully depending on how much he knew about Tywin and Tyrion - sorry Cersei) Sansa isnt even that politically valuable - her value is to Robb's enemies after Robb, Brann, and Rickon are all dead. Thats the only way you get Winterfell if youre a Lannister or Tyrell. Over their dead bodies. As for Robb as a leader himself: 1) accepting the crown was a big political mistake; and 2) after Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater Robb knew he couldnt achieve any victory, great or small, by conquest. His plan after the Red Wedding was to retreat back to the North and fortify Mote Caitlin (sp?). That was his best move and he knew it. He should have done that and then just threw Jaime in a dungeon in WF and humiliate the Lannisters by keeping the heir to Casterly Rock hostage. Tywins pride would have smashed all the southern armies against MC and more than likely would have ended miserably. Robb could have never defeated all the Southron armies on their own ground. He was about to go back home to winter and consolidate his power but thanks to his half crazed mother, opportunist Freys, and his own big mistakes (hi jeyne) he got himself killed before he could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 49 minutes ago, Khal Eazy said: Hey everybody, ive lurked on this site for probably two years and the compulsion to respond to some posts in numerous topics was just too much. Happy to be here! This may be responding to more than the topic was specifically about but Robb already believed Arya was dead (he has this conversation with Catelyn) and imo he figured he would never see Sansa alive again. Even if he marched down to KL victoriously with an army. Imo he just begrudgingly accepted that as the situation. Sansa is not worth exchanging Jaime for - one of the greatest individual fighters in the 7k, a leader of armies, and the only suitable heir to Casterly Rock (this last point is something Robb himself probably didnt appreciate fully depending on how much he knew about Tywin and Tyrion - sorry Cersei) Sansa isnt even that politically valuable - her value is to Robb's enemies after Robb, Brann, and Rickon are all dead. Thats the only way you get Winterfell if youre a Lannister or Tyrell. Over their dead bodies. As for Robb as a leader himself: 1) accepting the crown was a big political mistake; and 2) after Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater Robb knew he couldnt achieve any victory, great or small, by conquest. His plan after the Red Wedding was to retreat back to the North and fortify Mote Caitlin (sp?). That was his best move and he knew it. He should have done that and then just threw Jaime in a dungeon in WF and humiliate the Lannisters by keeping the heir to Casterly Rock hostage. Tywins pride would have smashed all the southern armies against MC and more than likely would have ended miserably. Robb could have never defeated all the Southron armies on their own ground. He was about to go back home to winter and consolidate his power but thanks to his half crazed mother, opportunist Freys, and his own big mistakes (hi jeyne) he got himself killed before he could. If Robb had tried, maybe Catelyn wouldn’t have been desperate enough to free Jaime. And Robb should have cared more; Joffrey could have her executed if he felt like it or one of his knights give her a fatal head injury after one of Robb’s victories. He didn’t care enough for her, and it cost him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Eazy Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: If Robb had tried, maybe Catelyn wouldn’t have been desperate enough to free Jaime. And Robb should have cared more; Joffrey could have her executed if he felt like it or one of his knights give her a fatal head injury after one of Robb’s victories. He didn’t care enough for her, and it cost him. I think he cared as much as any brother could in his position. But Robb isnt just a brother: hes a king. He isnt just considering Sansa's life or his own but every man in his army and everyone back home. And let the Kingslayer loose to go back to his old schemes? A man he already strongly suspects (and Catelyn discovers first hand and almost certainly confirmed to Robb) of being responsible for trying to murder his little brother? Who attacked his father in the streets? IMO, Robb was in a lose lose situation with Sansa no matter what happened. Joffrey was never gonna give her back for anything less than unconditional surrender. It sucks it had to be his sister but besides emotional attachment Sansa is not politically valuable at all. Tywin says if they gave her back Catelyn would marry her to some river lands Lord to shore up those alliances, but , just like Tywin said about Balon when considering the IB as a potential ally, why pay more for what theyre already giving you? Robb accepted the hard truth: Sansa's only true value to Robb is emotional and that counts for fuck all when you have tens of thousands of people's lives at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Khal Eazy said: I think he cared as much as any brother could in his position. But Robb isnt just a brother: hes a king. He isnt just considering Sansa's life or his own but every man in his army and everyone back home. And let the Kingslayer loose to go back to his old schemes? A man he already strongly suspects (and Catelyn discovers first hand and almost certainly confirmed to Robb) of being responsible for trying to murder his little brother? Who attacked his father in the streets? IMO, Robb was in a lose lose situation with Sansa no matter what happened. Joffrey was never gonna give her back for anything less than unconditional surrender. It sucks it had to be his sister but besides emotional attachment Sansa is not politically valuable at all. Tywin says if they gave her back Catelyn would marry her to some river lands Lord to shore up those alliances, but , just like Tywin said about Balon when considering the IB as a potential ally, why pay more for what theyre already giving you? Robb accepted the hard truth: Sansa's only true value to Robb is emotional and that counts for fuck all when you have tens of thousands of people's lives at stake. He didn't consider every man's life, when he slept with Jeyne, though or when beheading Karstark. So if you are going to do something, that could raise ppl against you at least do it for something useful. “I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.” Robb himself later recognized, that he should have gotten Sansa back after she was married to Tyrion. Especially because she is such a powerful tool in the hands of his enemies. And what has him suspecting the KS wanted to kill Bran or attacking Ned in the streets to do with anything anyway? He is his enemy he knows he won't go singing and dancing in the woods after he releases him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Peach King said: Because Robb didn't care enough. Somehow you actually really can say, he didn't care enough. Because he married Jeyne, but didn't even try to find a way to get Sansa back. So if you translate that honestly Jeyne's honor was more important to him that Sansa's life. Sounds harsh and maybe it's not true, but from his actions this is essentially want it boils down to. Especially when you consider forming a marriage alliance through Sansa could have been useful, while there was absolutely nothing useful about marrying Jeyne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Peach King said: Because Robb didn't care enough. I don't like Robb but this is not entirely accurate. He called for his banners to leave their families and farms to fight for him. They answered the call. His most important duty is not to his sisters, it is to the men who followed him into battle. Making sure they won the war is more important than the well-being of his siblings. The Starks chose to do this and therefore everyone in that family takes the risks. If Sansa and Arya must die in order to gain them an advantage then so be it. That is the case even if they were being tortured. Robb needed to put them aside for the sake of victory. There is such a thing as caring too much and no longer able to properly think things through. Case in point, Jon Snow at the wall. Robb is right in how he handled Sansa's captivity. Jon is wrong in how he handled Arya's marriage to Ramsay. Jon loved Arya too much so that he could no longer perform his duties and made some terrible decisions as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 2:06 AM, Angel Eyes said: Connected to the Cruel Robb thread, why couldn't Robb send a team of trusted soldiers to infiltrate the capitol and rescue Sansa and Arya (he doesn't know Arya's AWOL)? He wouldn't have to bring an army while he attacks the Westerlands and it would alleviate Catelyn's fears of what Joffrey and Cersei were doing (which turned out to be well-founded). Any other reasons to send a team? Because sending a team a) would not succeed and b) might prompt retaliation from Lannisters, possibly even executing sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 We don’t know his inner thoughts about Sansa. I also don’t really care? Sansa having to do things on her own makes for a better story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Ultimately this question is in the same vein as something like this, "why didn't Robb send a team to kill Tywin and Cersei" or "why didn't Robb send a team to take casterly Rock" it's not feasible so he never even bothered considering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said: Ultimately this question is in the same vein as something like this, "why didn't Robb send a team to kill Tywin and Cersei" or "why didn't Robb send a team to take casterly Rock" it's not feasible so he never even bothered considering it. That's not the same though. Robb wouldn't send a team to kill Cersei or Tywin for multiple reasons - it wouldn't make a large difference, that isn't how "honorable" men wage war, it wouldn't really fulfill any objective. Casterly Rock also wouldn't achieve any goal of his & would take the entire army not a small, discreet, team of people. Tyrion does exactly this for Jaime so I don't think it's outrageous to think Robb should have considered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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