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Lord Varys

That polygamy thing (all over again)

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Since I actually like this Targaryen polygamy thing as plot device thing which might become relevant in the future of the story, I wanted to ask you guys a couple of questions:

1. Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

2. If you think so, how do you think such ideas will shape the plot? Do you see any candidates for such polygamous marriages?

[I myself have speculated that Aegon might end up marrying both Arianne Martell and Sansa Stark as well as suggested that Dany could take a or multiple Dothraki khal(s) as spouses in addition to Hizdahr who is still her husband right now (this would then not only be 'Targaryen polygamy but perhaps also 'Dothraki polygamy' depending how prevalent polygamy is in their culture). For Dany there is also the chance that she is going to marry whoever ends up riding her other two dragons (believing them to be the other two dragon heads), which could result in two more marriages, followed by others as her dragons pass from rider to rider.]

3. Do you believe historically Targaryen polygamy (practiced in Westeros only by Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel) actually had the same or a similar standing with the people as the traditional Targaryen incest, i.e. do you think if Rhaegar-Lyanna had married publicly or their marriage had been revealed to the public during their lifetimes such a marriage would have been accepted or rejected on principle?

4. And for the future: How do you think a King Aegon VI taking two or more wives after/at his coronation would be seen by the people of Westeros? Would this be seen, say, as a positive image, a recreation of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives and thus a symbol of hope and future prosperity, or would you think the opposite is more likely? Do you even think the new High Septon with a rearmed Faith would accept a king with more than one wife at the same time? If so, why do you think that?

5. The same for Daenerys: How do you think she would be greeted/seen in Westeros if she came as a queen with multiple spouses, mimicking Aegon the Conqueror in this regard, who also came to Westeros with two wives who were fellow dragonriders?

6. Finally - do you think for the Westerosi only Targaryen pretenders could or would entertain polygamy or could you also see Euron Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon and any other pretenders to the Iron Throne who might pop up in the future to entertain such ideas?

The reason I'm asking this is because quite a few people - myself included - have pretty strong opinions on those matters, and I'd like to see how many people feel similarly (or completely different) about this matter. Is this something you care about much or at all?

There is also the fact that we are not likely to ever see a Targaryen incest match during the remainder of the series (unless it turned out that Tyrion and Dany were half-siblings and would marry each other) whereas the possibility for polygamy is always on the table. And if one looks the Targaryen history as discussed in the ASoIaF series proper then polygamy comes up pretty often, always when Aegon and his sister-wives come up, but also with many discussions of Maegor the Cruel.

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Polygamy is banned by the Faith of the Seven, so the Conqueror had to have his marriages prior to converting and Maegor also used a traditional Valyrian ceremony for his second marriage. I don't think those Valyrian ceremonies survived all those years of the Targaryens following the Faith, so that's a possible obstacle to later polygamy.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Since I actually like this Targaryen polygamy thing as plot device thing which might become relevant in the future of the story, I wanted to ask you guys a couple of questions:

1. Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

Probably.  But such polygamous marriages are not recognized.  Thus, the children will be bastards.  But hey, it is hard to worry about nuances when it's 10 degrees below zero outside and stomachs are growling.  

If R + L = J is true, then it was an act of passion rather than logic and reason.  So I do not think Rhaegar and Lyanna cared about making their union legit.  The gonads were doing the thinking.

2. If you think so, how do you think such ideas will shape the plot? Do you see any candidates for such polygamous marriages?

[I myself have speculated that Aegon might end up marrying both Arianne Martell and Sansa Stark as well as suggested that Dany could take a or multiple Dothraki khal(s) as spouses in addition to Hizdahr who is still her husband right now (this would then not only be 'Targaryen polygamy but perhaps also 'Dothraki polygamy' depending how prevalent polygamy is in their culture). For Dany there is also the chance that she is going to marry whoever ends up riding her other two dragons (believing them to be the other two dragon heads), which could result in two more marriages, followed by others as her dragons pass from rider to rider.]

3. Do you believe historically Targaryen polygamy (practiced in Westeros only by Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel) actually had the same or a similar standing with the people as the traditional Targaryen incest, i.e. do you think if Rhaegar-Lyanna had married publicly or their marriage had been revealed to the public during their lifetimes such a marriage would have been accepted or rejected on principle?

Rhaegar did not have the authority to annul his marriage to Princess Elia.  So no, whatever his intentions, such a marriage would not stand.  Any issue would be bastards.

4. And for the future: How do you think a King Aegon VI taking two or more wives after/at his coronation would be seen by the people of Westeros? Would this be seen, say, as a positive image, a recreation of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives and thus a symbol of hope and future prosperity, or would you think the opposite is more likely? Do you even think the new High Septon with a rearmed Faith would accept a king with more than one wife at the same time? If so, why do you think that?

Well, he doesn't have dragons does he?  Aegon VI Griffin will be dependent on the support coming from Westeros.  In other words, he will be making a lot of compromises and promises.  He won't be in a strong negotiating position.  So I do not think he could get away with polygamy.

5. The same for Daenerys: How do you think she would be greeted/seen in Westeros if she came as a queen with multiple spouses, mimicking Aegon the Conqueror in this regard, who also came to Westeros with two wives who were fellow dragonriders?

She has dragons.  And she will be bringing a substantial force with her.  In other words, less dependent on allies from Westeros.  She will have to make less compromises.  She should be able to get away with multiple husbands.  And she has no need to prove her identity.  

6. Finally - do you think for the Westerosi only Targaryen pretenders could or would entertain polygamy or could you also see Euron Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon and any other pretenders to the Iron Throne who might pop up in the future to entertain such ideas?

I suppose three on the same bed is better than two when the temperature is below freezing.  So yeah, a lot of people may take up polygamy if marriage has to be involved.  To hell with bastards, it's ef-fing cold out there.  It will not be a legitimate marI supriage but rather shagging for convenience and because there is nothing else to do.

The reason I'm asking this is because quite a few people - myself included - have pretty strong opinions on those matters, and I'd like to see how many people feel similarly (or completely different) about this matter. Is this something you care about much or at all?

Not really

There is also the fact that we are not likely to ever see a Targaryen incest match during the remainder of the series (unless it turned out that Tyrion and Dany were half-siblings and would marry each other) whereas the possibility for polygamy is always on the table. And if one looks the Targaryen history as discussed in the ASoIaF series proper then polygamy comes up pretty often, always when Aegon and his sister-wives come up, but also with many discussions of Maegor the Cruel.

So few examples over a span of three centuries.  

 

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17 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Polygamy is banned by the Faith of the Seven, so the Conqueror had to have his marriages prior to converting and Maegor also used a traditional Valyrian ceremony for his second marriage. I don't think those Valyrian ceremonies survived all those years of the Targaryens following the Faith, so that's a possible obstacle to later polygamy.

I hear you, that is also one of my main arguments for not considering it very likely that people in the 280s or 300s would consider it 'proper' or 'valid' to practice polygamy, especially not if you aren't a king.

With Aegon I we don't know for sure whether he married his sisters in a Faith ceremony/sept or also in a Valyrian rite, but even if he did marry them in sept it seems clear that the Westerosi orthodoxy of the Faith would view something like that as heretical.

Maegor sort of has some ancient First Men kings backing his take on things, but that would also be precedents outside the Faith. And one has to keep in mind that both a King Aegon VI and a (conquering) Queen Daenerys could indeed think they could emulate Aegon the Conqueror. They would not be either Prince Maegor nor Prince Rhaegar.

But it is very striking that Septons Murmison and Oswyck had no issues with incestuous monogamous marriages (Aegon-Rhaena & Jaehaerys-Alysanne) but Oswyck and other septons refused to marry Maegor to Alys and later still to Tyanna. We do have septon and Grand Maester martyrs dying for the sanctity of Maegor's one true marriage to Ceryse, but no septon dying as martyr after refusing to officiate at an incestuous union.

@Prince Rhaego's Soul:

The question with Rhaegar-Lyanna is whether people later will believe their union was legitimate or not. Assuming it was a secret union. If it was a public wedding then we would have to ask ourselves whether people back in 282 AC thought it legitimate (I'd assume all the rebels as well as the Mad King's people would not think so) and how people think about it when they learn that this Jon Snow fellow is supposed to be the son from that union.

I'm not sure most people would equate Lya-Rhaegar's children with normal bastards, but I'd expect them to be not seen as legitimate children the way the children of Rhaegar-Elia were. They might have insisted - if they accepted the marriage as such - that any children of Rhaegar and Lyanna would have the same status as the children of Duncan and Jenny (if they had any).

I'd agree that a King Aegon VI playing around with polygamy could be the beginning of his downfall. I think he could get the Faith onboard with something like that since they might be dependent on each other, but having two queens or more is a recipe for disaster as we also saw with Maegor's downfall.

With Dany it could actually help her to keep close ties with the other dragonriders. She cannot really allow them to become powers in their own right, independent of her. Marrying them could help with that, at least in the short run.

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To Lord Varys,

That is a very thorny issue you brought up.  Will the people believe.  How are marriages recorded in Westeros?  Is there a Hall of Records?  It will be a dilemma.  Especially now that Aegon is on the scene.  He has the appearance as well as the words of Jon Connington to back his claim.  He may additionally have Blackfyre.  I am sure Aegon and his people will challenge any claim of Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying.  But Lord Varys, you know what they say about haters.  "Haters gonna hate."  The same thoughts may work the same in this debate: "Believers gonna believe."  To be candid, the North will be ready to believe.  The South is not likely.  

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Given the rise of the Faith, I can't see polygamy happening. However, I think Aegon will use it to justify marrying Arianne to JonCon/the GC instead of leaving the spot open for Dany.

I'm not a fan of the idea that R and L married. I'll admit, a large part of it because I think it's more meaningful if Jon remains a bastard. But also, the marriage would only be considered legit if the realm accepted it. And if no one does, then it's a pointless addition to the story.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar

Nope, the faith of the seven is rearmed and resurgent and it will be a pointless battle for polygamy if any of the claimants are foolish enough to do so. But I'd like to see Arianne as fAegon's wife and himself as the prince of Dragonstone and one of the three dragon riders. Dany and Jon being the other two and ruling the 7K would be nice.... though Jon would be King of North or of the wildlings more likely... even Nightking or King of Winter are possibilities. 

Edited by TheLastWolf

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9 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

To Lord Varys,

That is a very thorny issue you brought up.  Will the people believe.  How are marriages recorded in Westeros?  Is there a Hall of Records?  It will be a dilemma.  Especially now that Aegon is on the scene.  He has the appearance as well as the words of Jon Connington to back his claim.  He may additionally have Blackfyre.  I am sure Aegon and his people will challenge any claim of Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying.  But Lord Varys, you know what they say about haters.  "Haters gonna hate."  The same thoughts may work the same in this debate: "Believers gonna believe."  To be candid, the North will be ready to believe.  The South is not likely.  

Well, in general medieval marriages are public affairs. That's why even today there are supposed to be witnesses attending a wedding to ensure it is properly witnessed - over here it was even mandatory to announce that wedding had taken place in the paper, etc.

The perfect parallel to Lya-Rhaegar are Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen. They were out in the wild, conceived a child, and after Aemond's death Alys comes forth claiming that she and Aemond married and their love child is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. One assumes she won't be able to prove that such a marriage took place to the satisfaction of a majority of the Westerosi lords and people (else Aegon III wouldn't have remained on the Iron Throne). And unlike Lya/Rhaegar here one of the alleged spouses is still alive.

13 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Given the rise of the Faith, I can't see polygamy happening. However, I think Aegon will use it to justify marrying Arianne to JonCon/the GC instead of leaving the spot open for Dany.

I'm not a fan of the idea that R and L married. I'll admit, a large part of it because I think it's more meaningful if Jon remains a bastard. But also, the marriage would only be considered legit if the realm accepted it. And if no one does, then it's a pointless addition to the story.

I expect this to have relevance how Jon will be seen by Daenerys - she would never marry or enter into a relationship with a bastard.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I expect this to have relevance how Jon will be seen by Daenerys - she would never marry or enter into a relationship with a bastard

Come on! Remember Daario? She is still a girl to hear Barristan put it. She could legitimize Jon if she fell in love(and if she gets the throne) ... and most probably Rhaegar and Lyanna married with some unknown secret witnesses. Any thoughts on this? 

Edited by TheLastWolf

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The perfect parallel to Lya-Rhaegar are Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen. They were out in the wild, conceived a child, and after Aemond's death Alys comes forth claiming that she and Aemond married and their love child is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. One assumes she won't be able to prove that such a marriage took place to the satisfaction of a majority of the Westerosi lords and people (else Aegon III wouldn't have remained on the Iron Throne). And unlike Lya/Rhaegar here one of the alleged spouses is still alive.

And it doesn’t appear that anyone takes the crazy witch woman’s claims seriously.  And there is no indication in the annals of the World of Ice and Fire that anyone else did either.  

Which is why a secret polygamous marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna falls flat on its face.  It’s not going to advance the plot.  The only thing it could possibly advance is giving Dany a competing claimant for the throne.  But there doesn’t appear to be any existing faction out there invested in the Iron Throne that would be interested in promoting Jon Snow as a claimant.  

I also think it’s unlikely because we already have a claimant in Young Griff.  Assuming that Dany ends up dispatching Young Griff, it’s going to seem pretty redundant for her to go through the same scenario with Jon Snow.  

We’re seriously running out of space in the books to make a sudden change of Jon Snow’s story arc.  And right now his story arc has been pretty consistent through five books.  His oath to the Wall vs his desire for Winterfell.  

If we’re going to see an ultimate conflict between Dany and Jon Snow, I don’t think it’s going to be because Jon Snow is coveting the Iron Throne.  I think it’s going to be because Dany may be interested in forcing the Lord of Winterfell (King in the North?) to bend the knee.

I do think it’s much more likely that if any Targaryen opts for a polygamous relationship it would be Dany as opposed to Rhaegar.  Dany has been raised without the teachings of the Faith to the best of my knowledge.  Or at least she doesn’t give the Faith any consideration in her actions.  She’s also been raised by Viserys and we know that he drilled in the idea of Targaryen exceptionalism into her.  

Add in the interesting mix of cultures that she has been raised in, and it seems that she might have a more liberal idea of the notion of marriage than those in Westerosi culture.  And the real parallel with polygamy is Aegon the conqueror, which appears to be the role that Dany is adopting.

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since I actually like this Targaryen polygamy thing as plot device thing which might become relevant in the future of the story, I wanted to ask you guys a couple of questions:

1. Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

2. If you think so, how do you think such ideas will shape the plot? Do you see any candidates for such polygamous marriages?

[I myself have speculated that Aegon might end up marrying both Arianne Martell and Sansa Stark as well as suggested that Dany could take a or multiple Dothraki khal(s) as spouses in addition to Hizdahr who is still her husband right now (this would then not only be 'Targaryen polygamy but perhaps also 'Dothraki polygamy' depending how prevalent polygamy is in their culture). For Dany there is also the chance that she is going to marry whoever ends up riding her other two dragons (believing them to be the other two dragon heads), which could result in two more marriages, followed by others as her dragons pass from rider to rider.]

3. Do you believe historically Targaryen polygamy (practiced in Westeros only by Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel) actually had the same or a similar standing with the people as the traditional Targaryen incest, i.e. do you think if Rhaegar-Lyanna had married publicly or their marriage had been revealed to the public during their lifetimes such a marriage would have been accepted or rejected on principle?

4. And for the future: How do you think a King Aegon VI taking two or more wives after/at his coronation would be seen by the people of Westeros? Would this be seen, say, as a positive image, a recreation of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives and thus a symbol of hope and future prosperity, or would you think the opposite is more likely? Do you even think the new High Septon with a rearmed Faith would accept a king with more than one wife at the same time? If so, why do you think that?

5. The same for Daenerys: How do you think she would be greeted/seen in Westeros if she came as a queen with multiple spouses, mimicking Aegon the Conqueror in this regard, who also came to Westeros with two wives who were fellow dragonriders?

6. Finally - do you think for the Westerosi only Targaryen pretenders could or would entertain polygamy or could you also see Euron Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon and any other pretenders to the Iron Throne who might pop up in the future to entertain such ideas?

The reason I'm asking this is because quite a few people - myself included - have pretty strong opinions on those matters, and I'd like to see how many people feel similarly (or completely different) about this matter. Is this something you care about much or at all?

There is also the fact that we are not likely to ever see a Targaryen incest match during the remainder of the series (unless it turned out that Tyrion and Dany were half-siblings and would marry each other) whereas the possibility for polygamy is always on the table. And if one looks the Targaryen history as discussed in the ASoIaF series proper then polygamy comes up pretty often, always when Aegon and his sister-wives come up, but also with many discussions of Maegor the Cruel.

1) Future Polygamy Targ marriages will happen without a doubt. I dont think Dany will ever lawfully divorce or put aside Hizdhar so she will have multiple spouses (wether the spouse knows about Hizdhar remains to be seen) I can see Dany marrying Aegon (who is legit) So right there 2 spouses (once Aegon dies she will marry Jon most like)

2) Certianly. Dany’s alignment with whomever will drastically shape the plot. I think Aegon will take KL and disarm the faith (it wont be easy). Dany will marry him and together they will try and stop Euron. She may lose a dragon her or a husband. 

3)This is hard to answer but, in Dorne it was very common for men in marriages to have a mistress or mistress’ (does this go the same way for the women? I think so) but they would be more open to polygamy style relationship as it was a normal thing in Dornish culture. The rest of the kingdoms (except the north) would frown upon polygamy never mind incest. I think the north and some southern houses (who ever keeps the old gods/first men blood) may be open to polygamy. Garth Greenhand had to have taken multiple wives (or Gf’s) to father all those different type of children

4) Aegon will not have a easy reign. The faith will do everything in their power to depose of him. The people of Westeros (depending on if they were previous dragon supporters will probably be excited) OVerall i think the people wont care as the country is in such disarray 

5) Dany will not be welcomed with open arms, eSpecially if the Faith has increased their power and influence on the people. 

6) Like the conqueror it all comes from their power. If any of those characters you listed or any random sell sword ends of king, he or she can claim 1 wife or 10 depending how much power they have. Aegon was unbeatable when he began the conquest, Oldtown and the faith bent the knee to save their lives. They didn’t want to anger Aegon or his sisters so they said they were ok with it. If the next king or queen can depose of their enemies without issue he or she will marry whose they like

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2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Come on! Remember Daario? She is still a girl to hear Barristan put it. She could legitimize Jon if she fell in love(and if she gets the throne) ... and most probably Rhaegar and Lyanna married with some unknown secret witnesses. Any thoughts on this? 

Oh, Daario isn't a bastard, and he is always just a paramour. Dany didn't even keep him in her bed after she married. If she came as a married woman to Westeros she wouldn't start an affair with Jon or consider him a potential second, third, fourth, etc. husband if she were already married and he was a bastard (either Ned's or Rhaegar's).

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27 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

This is hard to answer but, in Dorne it was very common for men in marriages to have a mistress or mistress’ (does this go the same way for the women? I think so) but they would be more open to polygamy style relationship as it was a normal thing in Dornish culture.

You're confusing polygamy with polyamory. They are not the same, not the political implications are the same.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since I actually like this Targaryen polygamy thing as plot device thing which might become relevant in the future of the story, I wanted to ask you guys a couple of questions:

1. Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

2. If you think so, how do you think such ideas will shape the plot? Do you see any candidates for such polygamous marriages?

[I myself have speculated that Aegon might end up marrying both Arianne Martell and Sansa Stark as well as suggested that Dany could take a or multiple Dothraki khal(s) as spouses in addition to Hizdahr who is still her husband right now (this would then not only be 'Targaryen polygamy but perhaps also 'Dothraki polygamy' depending how prevalent polygamy is in their culture). For Dany there is also the chance that she is going to marry whoever ends up riding her other two dragons (believing them to be the other two dragon heads), which could result in two more marriages, followed by others as her dragons pass from rider to rider.]

3. Do you believe historically Targaryen polygamy (practiced in Westeros only by Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel) actually had the same or a similar standing with the people as the traditional Targaryen incest, i.e. do you think if Rhaegar-Lyanna had married publicly or their marriage had been revealed to the public during their lifetimes such a marriage would have been accepted or rejected on principle?

4. And for the future: How do you think a King Aegon VI taking two or more wives after/at his coronation would be seen by the people of Westeros? Would this be seen, say, as a positive image, a recreation of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives and thus a symbol of hope and future prosperity, or would you think the opposite is more likely? Do you even think the new High Septon with a rearmed Faith would accept a king with more than one wife at the same time? If so, why do you think that?

5. The same for Daenerys: How do you think she would be greeted/seen in Westeros if she came as a queen with multiple spouses, mimicking Aegon the Conqueror in this regard, who also came to Westeros with two wives who were fellow dragonriders?

6. Finally - do you think for the Westerosi only Targaryen pretenders could or would entertain polygamy or could you also see Euron Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon and any other pretenders to the Iron Throne who might pop up in the future to entertain such ideas?

The reason I'm asking this is because quite a few people - myself included - have pretty strong opinions on those matters, and I'd like to see how many people feel similarly (or completely different) about this matter. Is this something you care about much or at all?

There is also the fact that we are not likely to ever see a Targaryen incest match during the remainder of the series (unless it turned out that Tyrion and Dany were half-siblings and would marry each other) whereas the possibility for polygamy is always on the table. And if one looks the Targaryen history as discussed in the ASoIaF series proper then polygamy comes up pretty often, always when Aegon and his sister-wives come up, but also with many discussions of Maegor the Cruel.

1. Probably not in the future, just one past reveal, if any. 

2. N/A

3. In the first 50 years of Westerosi history, probably tolerated just because there were dragonlords were in charge of the continent. Maybe culturally it was even less controversial; incest taboos tend to be more severe than polygamy taboos in the real world due to psychological components, and indeed, Westeros has more of a history with bedwarmers and second wives, still practised somewhat in the Iron Islands and beyond the Wall.

If it happened at the time of Robert's Rebellion: well, for most actual inhabitants of Westeros, they may be able to accept it. People like Dunk accept incest from the Targaryens being higher than normal men, and you could sell polygamy to them in the same way. Now, the people who will be in more in line with their legal history, lords and septons, is another issue. They'd have more reasons to tell Rhaegar "no" if he suddenly revealed he had a second wife... but might makes right, I am just going to say "it would depend on the circumstances," but it would likely be a thorn in his side in a best case scenario, Dorne would really see it as an insult, I imagine.

4. Another "it depends on the circumstances," answer and is likely down to the Faith's endorsement. The HS doesn't seem the sort to want to make any special exceptions, but might be shrewd enough to know how to play the political game and make some Aegon I parallel. But in any case, I really don't think this is likely to happen in the story itself.

5. She could probably get away with it, might makes right, and she's got three dragons, which is just enough to get past Westeros's sexism.

6. Given the crumbling status of the world, it's not out of the question. I don't believe Stannis would ever consider the possibility, and if Euron continues his bloody conquest, no-one is going to bat an eyelid about how many salt wives he has. Such a scenario would require massive cultural and social upheaval.

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

3)This is hard to answer but, in Dorne it was very common for men in marriages to have a mistress or mistress’ (does this go the same way for the women? I think so) but they would be more open to polygamy style relationship as it was a normal thing in Dornish culture.

Actually I think it might work the other way in Dorne. There is no stigma attached to having a paramour and bastardy, so in that case, multiple marriages become kind of pointless when a ruler can really just have paramours if they're into multiple people.

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*/brings popcorn/

Have your fun, guys.

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I think that Rhaegar married Lyanna, and this will be used as a tool for legitimizing Jon's claim over Iron Throne.

Additionally, in my opinion, prior the hatching of Dany's dragons, when fAegon and Golden Company were supposed to get assistance from Viserys, with his 10 thousands Dothraki, given to him from Khal Drogo for Dany, at that time Illyrio and Varys were planning that fAegon will marry with Arianne Martell and Margaery Tyrell.

Though afterwards, when Dany became a dragon-Queen, they thought that Arianne now isn't good enough for fAegon. And they were intending to marry her to Jon Connington, to get that way assistance from Dorne.

And Littlefinger played his own Game of Thrones to remove Margaery from the game-board, as fAegon's potential bride, and replaced her with Sansa Stark.

Thus fAegon will be intending to marry with Sansa and Dany. And Dany will be intending to marry with fAegon and Jon.

I'm wandering, if Dany will marry with Jon and fAegon, and fAegon will marry with Dany and Sansa, will it mean that Sansa will become Jon's wife? Or it doesn't work like that?

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes she won't be able to prove that such a marriage took place to the satisfaction of a majority of the Westerosi lords and people (else Aegon III wouldn't have remained on the Iron Throne)

Alys Rivers was a bastard servant and alleged witch, and Aemond hadn't even gotten along that well with the other Greens (with Alys herself allegedly being at fault for some of that). Even if she had indisputable proof (which I also doubt she had), I don't think that would have been enough. She wouldn't have had any allies supporting her.

6 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I dont think Dany will ever lawfully divorce or put aside Hizdhar

There's already been a coup against him. I don't think he'll survive.

 

Edited by FictionIsntReal
Responded to Bloodraven's Spider

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The Faith will be probably decimated soon, and I am not sure they will play a huge role after that. Sure, it's not gonna die out, but certainly after radicalized themselves and tyrannized nobility they will fall low. The sparrows will fall after trying to fly so high. 

If Daenerys manages to seize control of Westeros, she certainly can take two husbands. People will talk; they always do, especially because she is also a woman. But, talking and actually do something about it are different things. What is it to them anyway? They want their needs to be pleased, both nobility and people, polygamy is not forced upon them but it would be merely chosen as a way of life by the rulers. That alone will not push them to some extreme degree. It can be only a pretext if they are not pleased by the governing itself or someone ambitious to become king himself uses it against them. 

I don't think Jon is a jealous type but doesn't strike me as an eccentric also to accept such position, while Aegon, who we yet don't know well, might be better suited for it, being one of the husbands of the queen or marry two women himself.

Just mentioned Daenerys as an example, but it can apply to the rest of the possibilities from the OP.

 

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On 6/29/2020 at 5:51 PM, Lord Varys said:

1. Do you think we are going to see any Targaryen polygamy marriages in the future, most notably involving Prince Aegon or Daenerys or Jon Snow (presumably after his true parentage is revealed to his own satisfaction)? Or do you think that's just a thing of the past, some ploy to make Jon Snow 'the legitimate princely son' of Lyanna and Rhaegar?

I don't know.  And I'm not answering your litany of questions either, get over yourself.  This has been a bone of contention with you since I started reading these threads, which was about a decade ago, and I understand before that.  Get over it.  If there's a question of Jon's legitimacy, it will be dealt with by force.  You've spent..years arguing this, but the simple point is people believe what they are told to believe in Martin World.  If Jon has the power to claim legitimacy as a Targaryen, they will accept it.  Just like they did with Aegon and everyone else.  That's how legitimacy works.  You're looking at the direction of causality entirely wrong.  Polygamy, incest, whatever, it all works if you have enough influence.  How will he convince millions?  With arms.  Otherwise the extent of the legitimacy doesn't fucking matter either way.

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17 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't know.  And I'm not answering your litany of questions either, get over yourself.  This has been a bone of contention with you since I started reading these threads, which was about a decade ago, and I understand before that.  Get over it.  If there's a question of Jon's legitimacy, it will be dealt with by force.  You've spent..years arguing this, but the simple point is people believe what they are told to believe in Martin World.  If Jon has the power to claim legitimacy as a Targaryen, they will accept it.  Just like they did with Aegon and everyone else.  That's how legitimacy works.  You're looking at the direction of causality entirely wrong.  Polygamy, incest, whatever, it all works if you have enough influence.  How will he convince millions?  With arms.  Otherwise the extent of the legitimacy doesn't fucking matter either way.

If you have nothing to offer and don't want to offer anything, can you, perhaps, offer nothing by staying silent?

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

1. Probably not in the future, just one past reveal, if any. 

I personally expect the future thing to have more of a relevance than the past stuff, sort of like things are with the dragons. We don't got them for there not being any dragonriders in the future, either. Nor the Dany talk about her taking (at least) two husbands, those other dragon heads.

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

3. In the first 50 years of Westerosi history, probably tolerated just because there were dragonlords were in charge of the continent. Maybe culturally it was even less controversial; incest taboos tend to be more severe than polygamy taboos in the real world due to psychological components, and indeed, Westeros has more of a history with bedwarmers and second wives, still practised somewhat in the Iron Islands and beyond the Wall.

Only on the periphery - the Ironborn have their two types of wives, and the wildlings can have as many stolen women wives as they want to. There were two known First Men kings with multiple wives but no Andals in Westeros. The Faith seems to allow only monogamy.

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

If it happened at the time of Robert's Rebellion: well, for most actual inhabitants of Westeros, they may be able to accept it. People like Dunk accept incest from the Targaryens being higher than normal men, and you could sell polygamy to them in the same way. Now, the people who will be in more in line with their legal history, lords and septons, is another issue. They'd have more reasons to tell Rhaegar "no" if he suddenly revealed he had a second wife... but might makes right, I am just going to say "it would depend on the circumstances," but it would likely be a thorn in his side in a best case scenario, Dorne would really see it as an insult, I imagine.

Dunk seems to be turning Egg around in the incest department, not the other way around. Problem with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism thingy is that it was never used to justify/explain polygamy, so anyone trying to pull that would have an audience where the eyes of the people would glaze over and somebody would say 'Well, we thought they were special and could bang their sisters, but nobody ever said anything about them being special and have a lot of wives at the same time.' That thing is just unusual.

Rhaegar is of course a very special case, but in general it strikes one as very odd any Targaryen post-Maegor would have an easy time pushing this thing through ... and it would be much harder for one who isn't a king (yet) and has issues with his royal dad.

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

4. Another "it depends on the circumstances," answer and is likely down to the Faith's endorsement. The HS doesn't seem the sort to want to make any special exceptions, but might be shrewd enough to know how to play the political game and make some Aegon I parallel. But in any case, I really don't think this is likely to happen in the story itself.

I think that would only happen if Aegon were indeed falling for two women and/or he and his people need multiple power blocs on board to continue their campaign/survive. Which is why I think this could happen with both Arianne (delivering Dorne) and Sansa (delivering the Vale).

Those are the only two women who I think have a shot at marrying Aegon if they don't wait for Daenerys.

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

6. Given the crumbling status of the world, it's not out of the question. I don't believe Stannis would ever consider the possibility, and if Euron continues his bloody conquest, no-one is going to bat an eyelid about how many salt wives he has. Such a scenario would require massive cultural and social upheaval.

Stannis certainly never considered it, else Melisandre would already be his second queen. But the question is more whether people considering Targaryen polygamy are willing to open this concept for other pretenders to the Iron Throne, too.

One could also ask the question whether the Targaryen-Baratheons could have gotten away with incest - not just because they were the royal house, but also because they are also the blood of the dragon (through the female line) and can thus claim the Doctrine of Exceptionalism applies to them as well ... if they want it.

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

Actually I think it might work the other way in Dorne. There is no stigma attached to having a paramour and bastardy, so in that case, multiple marriages become kind of pointless when a ruler can really just have paramours if they're into multiple people.

Keep in mind that it is unthinkable for Arianne to marry a bastard like Daemon Sand - and also note that the unmarried Oberyn Martell never married Ellaria Sand. Affairs and paramours aren't as vilified there as in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and bastards may be treated more humanely and raised as part of a noble family ... but they inheriting anything, and they are not eligible to marry great lords and princes if those people want to remain part of the elite.

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