Covid-19 #28: Astra Projecting is an Out of Body Experience

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, williamjm said:

I might be misremembering but was there a news story about Putin getting the vaccine, but privately so we just have to take his word for it that he's been vaccinated with Sputnik?

You might be right, but I have something like The President can undergo an experimental medical procedure in the back of my head. You wouldn't be any money on it tho. But he didn't receive his shot publicly at least.

[Fez]

There's that human incompetence I was waiting to see...

 

[Fragile Bird]

8 minutes ago, Fez said:

There's that human incompetence I was waiting to see...

 

Holy crap! 

[IheartIheartTesla]

3 hours ago, williamjm said:

I might be misremembering but was there a news story about Putin getting the vaccine, but privately so we just have to take his word for it that he's been vaccinated with Sputnik?

Yes, we discussed it a few days back. The report stated that he wanted to take it privately (for some unknown reason) but also that they wouldnt reveal which of the 3 vaccines he took because they (he) didnt want to be accused of favoritism)

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

my condition has been stable for some years now, if that happens I'll be all over it.

I hope you get yours very soon, Bird.  It's been so hard on you, this endless waiting.  It was like that for me too, though I got lucky -- got  a lot of help from three friends who pounded and refreshed multiple screens and keyboards -- to get me one.  I will never forget their incredible kindness and generosity.

But you know?  It shouldn't have been necessary, just like what you're going through shouldn't be.

I fear we're all to have it to do all over again, the crazy impossibility of not logical, rational, easily accessible to all system, when it comes time for the boosters / next round. Which is depressing.  Just like the surely coming necessity to shut down .again because THEY WOULD OPEN EVERYTHING EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBERS ARE GETTING TO THE CUSP OF SURGE..

[Padraig]

6 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

@Padraig I am going to link an article in the Toronto Globe & Mail about the situation with regard to the AZ vaccine, but I'm not sure if it's behind a paywall for you. I'll quote a part of it as well.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-has-been-approved-but-for-how-long-and/

Thanks.  So yes, same data that convinced Germany to change its rules a day later.

The EMA gave more info today.  The numbers refer to vaccinations in the EU (and probably affiliated countries).

Quote

Based on the numbers reported to the agency so far, there have been 4.8 cases of the rare blood clots per million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine administered, she said.

“For the BioNTech vaccine, based on the same criteria, it was 0.2 cases per million,” Cooke added, referring to the shot a German biotechnology company developed with U.S. pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. "And for the Moderna vaccine based on the same criteria, zero cases per million. But that probably reflects that there’s a lot less use of Moderna at the moment in Europe.”

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/eu-evidence-restrict-astrazeneca-vaccine-76790180

I don't expect anything to change quickly on this.  Best case scenario: 2 to 4 weeks.  At that stage, they'll be reassured somehow or they will figure out who is at risk or they'll remain in the dark.  I fear it ill be option 3 because it seems like trying to find a needle in a haystack.  Its lucky there are a lot of other vaccines out there.

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

But surely the answer is not to attach oneself to a flailing hostile power with an authotarian leader.

I get your point but I can't see Russia offering enough vaccines to the EU to have any real traction.  If the drug is approved (and even that is uncertain) and the EU gets 50m doses over the next 6 months, I wouldn't snub it.  Lives are at stake.  But 50m?  You'd love 50m today (or even 15m) but by the time they arrive, this crisis will be passed.

1 hour ago, Fez said:

There's that human incompetence I was waiting to see...

 

Wow.  That's shocking.   I see a quote on politico that says.

Quote

Workers at the facility mistakenly mixed ingredients for the J&J vaccine with those of another manufacturer’s coronavirus shot, according to the two officials.

That suggests that other COVID-19 vaccines were wasted also, above the J&J doses.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/31/johnson-johnson-vaccine-15-million-ruined-478776

And what's the point of testing a vaccine against the South African vaccine in the US?  Unless they mean they are just testing safety, not efficacy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/us-begins-testing-modernas-covid-vaccine-booster-shots-for-variant-from-south-africa.html

[Altherion]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

There's that human incompetence I was waiting to see...

While this is definitely bad, it appears that the vaccine numbers in the US are quite strong even with only Pfizer and Moderna. Also, literally not a single person I spoke with in real life would pick the Johnson & Johnson if given a choice despite the fact that it only requires a single dose.

[S John]

43 minutes ago, Altherion said:

While this is definitely bad, it appears that the vaccine numbers in the US are quite strong even with only Pfizer and Moderna. Also, literally not a single person I spoke with in real life would pick the Johnson & Johnson if given a choice despite the fact that it only requires a single dose.

Really? I have had the opposite experience and talked to several people who would prefer one and done. It’s (apparently) as effective as the others at keeping you out of the hospital and that’s really the main thing. I would get it if offered.

however, I finally did get an appointment and I get my first Moderna shot Saturday morning. 

[Clueless Northman]

6 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Sure, we can have a discussion about our (EU) relationship with Russia. But then we should take a good look at Russian actions.

The past few years:

Russia actively helped to get a racist into the White House, which effectively weakened the EU. It also helped with the Brexit campaign. Which again, was not really in our interest.

It comitted one assasination in Germany, and attempted another one on British soil before that.

Well, nice, these are claims, with some evidences, sure, but still claims. Now let's look at facts, reported here:

US will vaccinate people over 16 next week. Europe and Canada will barely begin to vaccinate 60-70 age range.

So, to be blunt, I don't think your Russian actions, even if all true, are actually more harmful to EU than what's being done right now to Europe, death-wise and economy-wise (actually, if Putin helped Brexit, EU should actually thank him). Greedy selfish US and UK governments are directly killing people by the thousands among their alleged "allies" and will cause tens of billions of added damages, compared to what their own economy will have suffered when life will go back to closer normal. This grabbing of vaccines all over the Western world coupled with de facto ban on export could only be considered as the actions of hostile nations by any government that isn't totally stupid or corrupt.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

While this is definitely bad, it appears that the vaccine numbers in the US are quite strong even with only Pfizer and Moderna. Also, literally not a single person I spoke with in real life would pick the Johnson & Johnson if given a choice despite the fact that it only requires a single dose.

I would have.

[Zorral]

31 minutes ago, S John said:

I finally did get an appointment and I get my first Moderna shot Saturday morning. 

That's wonderful -- pleased on your behalf.  I had Moderna too. No side effects other than some soreness, stiffness in that upper arm.  My second one is scheduled for a week from Good Friday.  I hear from friends the second time around can make one rather ill for some hours, a day or so. I hope not, because I have an appointment for a hair cut on the 11th, and would hate to cancel it.

No choice for anything earlier because the stylist and location are very strict about one stylist and one customer at a time -- and must be booked so far in advance.  Though stylist is fully vaccinated, we both still will be wearing masks -- and the door will be open, and the ceiling fans running. I got cut at end of summer last year.  The last one we shoved in before Thanksgiving because stylist and I both believed a holiday surge would happen.  So hair's had attention twice at the end of summer last year, and nothing before or since.

[S John]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

That's wonderful -- pleased on your behalf.  I had Moderna too. No side effects other than some soreness, stiffness in that upper arm.  My second one is scheduled for a week from Good Friday.  I hear from friends the second time around can make one rather ill for some hours, a day or so. I hope not, because I have an appointment for a hair cut on the 11th, and would hate to cancel it.

No choice for anything earlier because the stylist and location are very strict about one stylist and one customer at a time -- and must be booked so far in advance.  Though stylist is fully vaccinated, we both still will be wearing masks -- and the door will be open, and the ceiling fans running. I got cut at end of summer last year.  The last one we shoved in before Thanksgiving because stylist and I both believed a holiday surge would happen.  So hair's had attention twice at the end of summer last year, and nothing before or since.

Thanks! Looks like the number of (at least partially) vaccinated folks in this thread is beginning to pile up. Hope everyone that wants it can get it soon.

The one non-essential public thing I’ve been doing the last couple of months is going to the gym. Maybe slightly arguable that it isn’t essential because it’s good for every other part of my being besides the part where I could get Covid, but anyway I have been back a couple of months now. When I got my appointment the superstitious part of my brain made me cancel the couple classes I had planned to go to before Saturday lest I catch Covid at the last minute! I’ll give the first dose a few days to marinate before I go back afterwards as well. I do have to physically go into work Friday but masks are mandatory and my coworkers are respectful of the rules so hopefully I can make it a few more days, get this shot, and begin the process of mentally shifting back into a normal social posture.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, S John said:

The one non-essential public thing I’ve been doing the last couple of months is going to the gym. Maybe slightly arguable that it isn’t essential because it’s good for every other part of my being besides the part where I could get Covid, but anyway I have been back a couple of months now.

I took the monthly savings and built a small gym at home. Nothing fancy (three Bowflex weights, an improved easy to store bench, new yoga stuff). I miss going to the gym, but that's mainly because it's easy to get distracted at home and my old stationary bike is no where near as good as an elliptical or row machine (I could probably just by the latter though). However, that's not entirely the point here. Today I heard a brief mention of a study tracking weight gain during COVID, and the sample group, which wasn't huge, was already tracking their daily weight before the pandemic began. What it found is that the average monthly weight gain was about 2 pounds. Not a lot, but over the course of a year it really adds up. The interesting point I hadn't considered as much was, per the bolded, a lot of it isn't coming from less working out, but from the huge reduction in daily activities. I still go into my office, but yeah, other then that it's just a biweekly trip to the grocery store, the occasional trip to the liquor store and that's really about it. Anything else is mostly a random one off and I'm ordering so much more online than I ever did before.

[S John]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I took the monthly savings and built a small gym at home. Nothing fancy (three Bowflex weights, an improved easy to store bench, new yoga stuff). I miss going to the gym, but that's mainly because it's easy to get distracted at home and my old stationary bike is no where near as good as an elliptical or row machine (I could probably just by the latter though). However, that's not entirely the point here. Today I heard a brief mention of a study tracking weight gain during COVID, and the sample group, which wasn't huge, was already tracking their daily weight before the pandemic began. What it found is that the average monthly weight gain was about 2 pounds. Not a lot, but over the course of a year it really adds up. The interesting point I hadn't considered as much was, per the bolded, a lot of it isn't coming from less working out, but from the huge reduction in daily activities. I still go into my office, but yeah, other then that it's just a biweekly trip to the grocery store, the occasional trip to the liquor store and that's really about it. Anything else is mostly a random one off and I'm ordering so much more online than I ever did before.

Yea probably a bit of both because I was not a total coach potato during the gym free months and was in good shape before and I still gained a surprising amount. I really can’t do the home gym thing, it just isn’t what works for me. I could have a full gym in my basement and it would collect dust because I need structure and accountability more than I need equipment. 

Even though I’m quite concerned about Covid I’m probably still far more likely to be taken out by heart or cardiovascular issues and the more out of shape you get the harder it is to get it back. Had a Dr appointment after New Years and found I’d gained 20lbs and had high cholesterol since the pandemic, so I’ve been taking the calculated risk of in-person gym 3-4 times a week ever since.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

I get your point but I can't see Russia offering enough vaccines to the EU to have any real traction.  If the drug is approved (and even that is uncertain) and the EU gets 50m doses over the next 6 months, I wouldn't snub it.  Lives are at stake.  But 50m?  You'd love 50m today (or even 15m) but by the time they arrive, this crisis will be passed.

Hum, not the point tho. Would I buy the vaccines? (assuming they get EMA approval) Absolutely. Does that change the fact, that Russia is not your benign next door super power? Nope. There's an adversial relationship between the EU and Russia, plain and simple. Misinformation campaign throu Sugarmountains disinformation tool, Russia Today etc. The backing of anti-EU(ropean), nationalist parties like the Front National in France or the AfD in Germany. There's just very little upside to tying your fate to a former super power fantasizing about its glory days. And then we've that list of grievances I gave above. If that's supposed to be our new friends, then thanks, but no thanks.

3 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

Well, nice, these are claims, with some evidences, sure, but still claims. Now let's look at facts, reported here:

So which of those do you dispute?

3 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

So, to be blunt, I don't think your Russian actions, even if all true, are actually more harmful to EU than what's being done right now to Europe, death-wise and economy-wise (actually, if Putin helped Brexit, EU should actually thank him). Greedy selfish US and UK governments are directly killing people by the thousands among their alleged "allies" and will cause tens of billions of added damages, compared to what their own economy will have suffered when life will go back to closer normal. This grabbing of vaccines all over the Western world coupled with de facto ban on export could only be considered as the actions of hostile nations by any government that isn't totally stupid or corrupt.

The EU should thank Putin for weakening it, economically, and militarically. The latter will unfortunately play a bigger role for the EU going forward.

About the greedy bit. Right now, everybody is looking out for their own self-interest to some degree. Sure, the EU is exporting more than the UK or the US (combined). All players face domestic pressure to get their people vaccinated. If the US started shipping huge amount of vaccines out, while they are not immunized, how do you think that will play at home for Biden. Same with the Brits and Johnson. It's not pretty, and morally reprehensible, but it is what it is. Why do you think the EU considered export stops for vaccines? It's not like the EU has selflessly exported huge amounts of vaccines to Africa or South America. And if we're taking a bit of the drama out. 20m doses went to the UK. That's alot for the UK, with a population of 70m, but with the EU we have 450m people to vaccinate.  So how much could've or should've sent back to the EU, a few milion doses would hardly be a game changer, even with those 20m doses that went there things wouldn't look that much better. And the shortage in the EU is mainly down to AZ not delivering on its promises. @Rippounet explained things a bit better a few pages ago. In a few months production will be hopefully be fully operational. And yes, one can hope for the AZ CEO to be put on a rocket ship on its away into the sun. But that might just be my wish. Anyway, the EU also won't let any additional vaccines leave from suppliers who are not roughly living up to their end of the bargain (AZ). Russia is sitting on quite a big stash of unused vaccines, because quite a big number of Russians do not trust it, or do not believe in the pandemic. Last time I checked around 3.5m out of 144m Russians have received both doses (around 11m administered doses in total). For them this is ofc a PR dream. Selfless Russia saves Europe from the pandemic. And people obviously buy into this. And Sputnik V hasn't even been approved in the EU yet.

The UK and the US doing more damage to the stability of the EU than Russia is ludicrous claim on its face. Again, the biggest strain on the US-EU relationship was the orange racist Putin helped getting into the White House. If people now point to the damage Putin's puppet has done, as evidence that Putin is a better ally, that is quite something. Same with Brexit. But yeah, we should thank him for that. Actions have consequences. Your argument is built on the consequences of Putin's/Russia's action, without taking the action itself into account.

[rotting sea cow]

3 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Misinformation campaign throu Sugarmountains disinformation tool, Russia Today etc

Maybe we should have a thread where we discuss Russia and China? Why not also other problems affecting modern society, like the poor state of democracy and politics around the world? or the interference of corporate interests in our daily lives? etc

Anyway, rt.com is the russian equivalent of das Bild or dailyfail. The amount of BS that those tabloids spit everyday is enormous. From time to time there is something interesting, but is few and far in between.

[rotting sea cow]

On covid vaccines news

J&J reported that a quality issue was discovered at its plant in Baltimore. Apparently two ingredients were mixed incorrectly ruining about 15 millions of doses.

News sources:

https://www.businessinsider.com/factory-mixup-ruins-johnson-johnson-doses-nyt-2021-3?r=DE&IR=T

J&J statement

https://www.jnj.com/johnson-johnson-statement-on-u-s-covid-19-vaccine-manufacturing

(the cynical me wonders if AZ would be as forthcoming as J&J if they met the same issues.)

[DireWolfSpirit]

Initially it was the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines that I was worried about sufferring possible spoilage due to the extreme deep freeze requirements for handling and storage of the vaccine.

J&J's vaccine was suppose to have easier handling and storage and the one and done as a feature.

Not the way I would've guessed things were going to go. 

Anyways let's hope for no more mishaps and these vaccines keep getting pumped out as efficiently as we can get them to everyone. I know I'm super anxious to get mine asap.

[Which Tyler]

12 hours ago, Fez said:

There's that human incompetence I was waiting to see...

 

Well fuck!

"However idiot proof you make a process, nature will provide a bigger idiot"

[Padraig]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Hum, not the point tho. Would I buy the vaccines? (assuming they get EMA approval) Absolutely. Does that change the fact, that Russia is not your benign next door super power? Nope. There's an adversial relationship between the EU and Russia, plain and simple. Misinformation campaign throu Sugarmountains disinformation tool, Russia Today etc. The backing of anti-EU(ropean), nationalist parties like the Front National in France or the AfD in Germany. There's just very little upside to tying your fate to a former super power fantasizing about its glory days.

Oh.  I don't particularly disagree with any of that.  I'll take Sputnik if approved but I have no desire to be tied together with Russia.

But I don't think its an option.  I don't believe Russia has a bit stash of vaccines lying around.  In a few months it may have but the EU will have other suppliers delivering by then.  It's clever marketing from Russia to make people think that it can save the day but it is nothing more than that.  Giving a few million doses to Austria or Hungary is not going to save Europe.  Even if those few countries appreciate it.

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

If the US started shipping huge amount of vaccines out, while they are not immunized, how do you think that will play at home for Biden. Same with the Brits and Johnson. It's not pretty, and morally reprehensible, but it is what it is.

But, while I think that Clueless Northman has gone way too far on this, I think the above paragraph is too forgiving.  Once you say that you are going to keep all the vaccines for yourself, it is almost impossible to change direction.  On ther other hand, I do think there was a story that could have been told about co-operating with others, the problem is bigger than 1 country etc. that could have lead to a different outcome.

And I'm not talking about the UK/US assisting Europe here.  There are a lot of countries that need assistance much more than the EU.  Vaccinating healthy people while hundreds of millions of vulnerable people are unvaccinated in other countries is quite dreadful.  But, we just politely look away when the WHO keeps repeating that.

At the same time, there are a few odd things going on with US/UK's relationship with EU.  I find the "alone we stand" approach poor.  The US possibly claiming the J&J vaccine produced in the EU (its possible even at more risk now that they destroyed 15m) is also poor.  The UK making some sort of claim on the AZ vaccine produced in Halix is similarly poor.   AZ's very close relationship with the UK doesn't reflect well on the UK (given how badly AZ has done) but maybe the EU should have seen that AZ was never going to be its ally given Brexit.

Still, despite this, the EU will need to figure out how to work with the US (and the UK).  Beyond COVID, we are aligned on way more things than we aren't.  (And even with COVID, a lot of our supplies have still come from American and British companies.  Even if we want more).