Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 19

[Jon Fossoway]

Was reading some stuff I love to read about when this name came up. Something in the back of my head began itching and then I realized where that name was familiar from. It is clear, then, where GRRM got the hero Herndon of the Horn from. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

IIRC the first time we hear of House Bolton, we learn that Roose urged The Ned to execute Barristan. I believe this is the second time we read about House Bolton...

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"Only two days ago on of Lord Bolton's men knifed one of Lord Cerwyn's at the Smoking Log. Our lady mother would skin me for a pelt if I let you put yourself at risk."

Rob to Bran, Game 53 

And from a bit later on in that chapter...

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A series of chisel-cut handholds made a ladder in the granite of the tower's inner wall. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he went down hand under hand, Bran bouncing against his back in the wicker seat that Maester Luwin had fashioned for him. Luwin had gotten the idea from the baskets the women used to carry firewood on their backs; after that it had been a simple matter of cutting legholes and attaching some new straps to spread Bran's weight more evenly. It was not as good as riding Dancer, but there were places Dancer could not go, and this did not shame Bran the way it did when Hodor carried him in his arms like a baby. Hodor seemed to like it too, though with Hodor it was hard to tell. The only tricky part was doors. Sometimes Hodor forgot that he had Bran on his back, and that could be painful when he went through a door.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Lost Melnibonean

[LynnS]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:09 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Yes, that's a good idea, any kind of hollow, cave etc would do the trick. I personally like the foreshadowing that others have picked up on about the possibility of the ice cell, but Castle Black's crypts are an interesting alternative. 

I am well, thank you.  Occupied with family matters and spring maintenance.  Nice to see you, as well.

Yes, he could be put into storage in an ice cell.  Not sure this means that is where he will be raised, especially if there is discussion about burning his corpse.  So I wonder if Borroq will intervene knowing that Jon's soul is currently house in Ghost.  Raising Jon from the crypts at Castle Black.(reserved for Lord Commanders of the NW?) would be interesting forshading for potential events, in the crypts of Winterfell.

I'm always hopeful for something a little left field from George.   

[Lost Melnibonean]

The witness to Dunk's "knighthood" was a robin in a thorn tree. A robin symbolizes good luck, happiness, rebirth. The thorn is a symbol of sin, sorrow and hardship. And Dunk was wondering whether his ears were turning red when he was recounting his investiture. Our ears turn red in response to strong emotions, such as embarrassment.  

[Hugorfonics]

"You promised I could make him fly," the Lord of the Eyrie screamed at his mother. He began to shake.

Lady Lysa's face was flushed with fury. "The gods have seen fit to proclaim him innocent, child. We have no choice but to free him." She lifted her voice. "Guards. Take my lord of Lannister and his … creature here out of my sight. Escort them to the Bloody Gate and set them free. See that they have horses and supplies sufficient to reach the Trident, and make certain all their goods and weapons are returned to them. They shall need them on the high road."

.

Despite the law the Lord of the Eyrie wanted to kill him, but Lysa choose the highroad.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

I think I figured out where the idea of Bran the Builder came from. 

In Old English timbran  means "builder"  and it is on the same page as the phrase that means "a ten year old person" tiengewintred ("ten wintered")

And timbran  means "made out of wood" so there is the added element of Bran going back in time through the weirwood to be Bran the Builder.  And in Old English wer  means "man" and wood means "wood" so a werwood is a man-tree.  And Bran is turning into a tree, and in Jon's dream Bran is a weirwood sapling.

And in Arthurian legend when Merlin was a child he helped Vortigern build his castle that kept collapsing, because there were dragons underneath it.  So the idea of a wizard boy being a builder goes way back.

[Seams]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Despite the law the Lord of the Eyrie wanted to kill him, but Lysa choose the highroad.

But this is one of those double-meaning situations that GRRM loves: Sweetrobin was told that he could make the little man fly. The reader understands that this means that Tyrion would be pushed out of the Moon Door. But there are so many ways to fly in ASOIAF. It's possible that Sweetrobin confers the power on Tyrion to become a dragon rider. The legend of Ronnel Arryn might tell us that (perhaps as a descendant of the Winged Knight, or as the Falcon King), Ronnel climbed aboard Vhagar and flew with Visenya. I believe this is unprecedented in Westeros history, to have two passengers - especially a non-Targaryen - ride a dragon. So maybe Sweetrobin had a power he could confer

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Later in Aegon's Conquest, Visenya was charged with subduing the Vale. Sharra Arryn, Queen Regent of the Vale, ruling in the name of her son, the boy-king Ronnel Arryn, amassed the Vale's army at the Bloody Gate. Visenya, however, flew on Vhagar to the courtyard of the Eyrie to obtain the surrender of the Vale of Arryn. When Sharra returned to the Eyrie she found her son sitting on Visenya's lap asking if he could ride the dragon with her. Once Sharra yielded and bent the knee, Ronnel twice flew with Visenya and Vhagar.

As for sending them along the high road, Lysa may have expected Tyrion and Bron to die there as attacks by clans or robbers were likely. 

So lots of irony in both lines. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

But this is one of those double-meaning situations that GRRM loves: Sweetrobin was told that he could make the little man fly. The reader understands that this means that Tyrion would be pushed out of the Moon Door. But there are so many ways to fly in ASOIAF. It's possible that Sweetrobin confers the power on Tyrion to become a dragon rider. The legend of Ronnel Arryn might tell us that (perhaps as a descendant of the Winged Knight, or as the Falcon King), Ronnel climbed aboard Vhagar and flew with Visenya. I believe this is unprecedented in Westeros history, to have two passengers - especially a non-Targaryen - ride a dragon. So maybe Sweetrobin had a power he could confer

Oh shit, I never thought about that. One rider per dragon, howd the kid pull it off? I guess just hugging onto Visenya. Still I agree, looks unprecedented.

Yea a few hints that Tyrion may become a dragonrider, especially in this scene

7 hours ago, Seams said:

As for sending them along the high road, Lysa may have expected Tyrion and Bron to die there as attacks by clans or robbers were likely. 

So lots of irony in both lines. 

100% Lysa expected Tyrion to die, she did her best to kill him in the skycells and the trial. Definitely did not take the"highroad" by ordering Tyrion to.

That's the part I really never noticed, the joke and irony on the idiom 

[The hairy bear]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

Ronnel climbed aboard Vhagar and flew with Visenya. I believe this is unprecedented in Westeros history, to have two passengers - especially a non-Targaryen - ride a dragon.

We know Vhagar also flew with Aemond and Alys Rivers. We see that when they return together at Harrenhal to face Daemon.

Alyssa took newborn Viserys with her on a ride.

There are other instances where it can be assumed that a rider can bring guest passangers with him on the dragon.

[Seams]

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

a rider can bring guest passangers with him on the dragon

Ok. So not unprecedented. I guess it's sort of like airlines granting perks to frequent fliers with a lot of miles.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Another piece of evidence that Theon is a parallel of Jon is that in Old Norse Theon is spelled Thjonn / þjonn, and means "servant, butler, attendant" and Jon's job at the Wall is to be Mormon's butler.  And Theon was Ramsey's servant.

 

I figured out why there is this connection between the Daynes and the Greyjoys [gryja, greking, krieken, and dagan all mean "dawn"]. 

The word "Dane" means "viking, sea-raider" and Lovercraft used "Dane" as a synonym of "viking" in his stories. 

And wicing / wycing is the Old English term for "Viking, sea-raider, robber, freebooter" and the Greyjoy's islands are name Wyk, wic also means "castle, dwelling" in Old English.

 

Also figured out why Ashara is associated with the word "maid" [the Sloe Eyed Maid, and the Shy Maid both refer to her]

In Old English þienen / þinen mean "maid, midwife"  and the letter þ looks like a "D" so those words looks like they say Dayne.

 

þorn / þyrn means "thorn" and right below it þyrr means "dry, withered" and Dorne is a desert. 

Deon means "suckling" in Old English  and milcdeond means "suckling"  and the Dayne's have genetic lactation problems, and dyrr mean "dry"

 

Dyrn means "secret, hidden" in Old English, and also means "fornication, adultery" and that explains several plot ideas. 

It explains why the Tower of Joy was located in Dorne, it was a secret tower where adultery took place.  It explains why the Dornish are fornicators, like Oberyn.  It explains Ned and Ashara having a secret dalliance at the Wolf's Den.  Hey, I never noticed that the Wolf's Den is where a Wolf and a Dayne got together.  Ashara is the Wolf's Dayne.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

Thjonn

Wouldn't that be pronounced 'Yonn' rather than 'Jon' though?

5 minutes ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

In Old English þienen / þinen mean "maid, midwife"  and the letter þ looks like a "D" so those words looks like they say Dayne.

But they wouldn't be pronounced like that?

Surely if GRRM was reading whatever book this is he'd take note of the pronunciation?

[The Bard of Banefort]

It occurred to me: did the Baratheons own a dragon egg prior to the Rebellion? Rhaelle would have had one in her cradle, and she presumably brought it with her to Storm’s End. So was the egg passed down to her son and grandsons?

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It occurred to me: did the Baratheons own a dragon egg prior to the Rebellion? Rhaelle would have had one in her cradle, and she presumably brought it with her to Storm’s End. So was the egg passed down to her son and grandsons?

I am guessing that dragon eggs remained the property of the crown, to be held in trust by the princeling, until the egg hatched or until the crown recalled it. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they wouldn't be pronounced like that?

Surely if GRRM was reading whatever book this is he'd take note of the pronunciation?

Yes, but correct pronunciation and usage doesn't matter.  In related languages the same word is thjon / þen /  thenn / den / dienen / diunon / degan

I also just realized that Jon was the Old Bear's man-servant and giong also means servant in Old English, and the words "servant" and "bearer" are synonyms.

and arth and dwyn both mean "bear" in Welsh, and the Old Bear is Jon's foster father at the Wall and gives Jon his ancestral family sword.  and Gwyn means "bear" in Welsh and sounds like Jon.

and thjodann / theoden means "king" in Norse/ Old English.  And Jon Dayne is King Crow. 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Wouldn't that be pronounced 'Yonn' rather than 'Jon' though?

Here's something fun

iain means "ice" in Welsh, and eiryn means "snow"  and Borrell says Jon was named after Jon Arryn. (and borreal means "dawn")

iain rhos / Yohn Royce means "ice rose" in Welsh--and Jon is the Blue Winter Rose.  And Yohn Royce's son Waymar is killed by the White Walkers in the prologue because he was not Jon and did not have the special sword Dawn.

 

 

odiad means "snow" in Welsh, adhar means "snow" in Gaelic. 

oigrid / oigreata means "snow / ice" in Gaelic and oigreog means "strawberry" and egrid means "oxidized, rusty, red" in Welsh

egriad means "to grow hard" and I just got that that is a boner joke.  Because Ygritte makes Jon grow hard (at the Wall)

[Craving Peaches]

36 minutes ago, Fun Guy from Yuggoth said:

Yes, but correct pronunciation and usage doesn't matter. 

Why not? I'm really confused now...

So you think GRRM read this book, but that he doesn't care about the pronunciation or usage of any of the words from it he's incorporating into the story?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why not? I'm really confused now...

So you think GRRM read this book, but that he doesn't care about the pronunciation or usage of any of the words from it he's incorporating into the story?

He just flips through these dictionaries and picks out words he likes, or words that mean what he wants them to mean.  He can't actually speak any of these languages, so correct pronunciation doesn't really matter.  I have spent a lot of time reading the Gaelic dictionaries, but how the words are spelled and how they are actually pronounced is baffling.  No one could get the correct pronunciation from reading the dictionary, even the phonetic ones.

Unrelated but I just found that beag / baug  means "Ring" in Old English / Norse, so that is why the Baggins got the Ring in LoTR.  And baigean means "fat little man" in Gaelic. 

[Seams]

Do you think House Whent could be an allusion to Ents? Or Ent wives? 

There's a recent thread that seems to put together a few pieces in a motif of fertility goddesses in the Riverlands. 

So it makes sense to me that House Whent might be the traditional home of the ent wives. I am not a Tolkein expert at all, but i recall that ent wives have all gone (or, at least, are never seen "on screen" in Tolkein's books). This fits with the off-screen presence of members of House Whent, including Catelyn's long-gone lady mother. 

The last Lord of House Whent was Walter and his lady wife, Shella, was also a Whent by birth. Both are now deceased. In the books, two Frey women are from House Whent - one died without children and the other is married to Danwell, the ninth son of Lord Walder Frey, by his Crakehall line. She has had no living children. 

The fact that the Freys have had no luck "fertilising" their Whent wives seems significant to me, because the Freys are so fertile and because the true heir or Harrenhal would be a strategically important position in the Riverlands and in general. If Catelyn or Edmure's children are the true heirs of House Whent, this could be another clue for us about the fertility goddess in the Riverlands and this could link to the "Ent" earth beings who are near extinction.

[Lost Melnibonean]

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The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him. The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame. The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall. 

Davos I, Clash

Foreshadows Brienne and Jaime love, and Lady Stoneheart. 

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Out front squatted a waist-high gargoyle, so eroded by rain and salt that his features were all but obliterated.

Id.

Foreshadows Tyrion's nose. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Lost Melnibonean

[Lost Melnibonean]

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"My sweet queen is all the woman I desire."

Renly to Lord Caswell in Clash. 

Clever.