How will Sansa's true identity be revealed to the Vale ?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It makes sense to me that Howland would pass through the Quiet Isle on his way to the Vale and I wonder if he is the last of Rhaegar's rubies that Elder Brother has been waiting to wash up on the island.

I was actually thinking that the Elder Brother and Howland simply could have known each other for a while. Howland is canny about his travels, and would likely need to feel out for reliable allies and hubs. Since crannogmen seem to be around the area, and we already know the Elder Brother to be good with keeping mum on identities, it's certainly a possibility. In that case, Howland may not have been following Brienne--it could simply be that he was checking in for information.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Sansa will have a difficult time in proving who she is. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is the passage|:

Are we talking about actual rubies or characters like Brienne and Sandor who wash up on the Quiet Isle and have some kind of purpose.   Why would Elder Brother be waiting for something or someone to show up? 

As always you are bringing another wonderful (arcane??) idea that was floated before GOT,  when all we had was this story and fan art and really fun music.  This needs it's own topic!  We could talk about color and gemstones and fun things.  Thanks for that LynnS.  

I am never clear in Sansa's reveal.  My reading of certain aspects of this ASOIAF lend to some less popular outcomes in TWOW, such as this here tourney in the Vale.  Surely this is a critical event in our prophecies, given their importance in the past?  I always sort of imagined Little Finger would er, uncover Sansa, when it suited him and he was best positioned to make some sort of military move.   Hmm, wasn't there some heavy campaigning happening at Harrenhal?  I imagine Rhaegar with elegance only a popular person can manifest.  He was a big deal, but this guy?  No, whatever happens it will be bloody and somehow inept.  Remember when Theon decided he was the prince of Winterfell?  Yah, that sort of inept.   Look for big opportunities to discern some finer strokes of LF's real ambition.  

While I would love to ensure Sansa's safety I'm not sure I want her to be rescued.  Let's see what she's really learned.  Who are her allies?  This enduring captivity of hers has to be bugging her as much as it bugs me.  I want to see who she thinks she can trust or invoke some loyalty.  Yes, I am a sap.  I was hoping Sansa would completely win Harry over and he grew some act right because she needs to win a thing or two.  Hostages need need some hope.  But there is no denying Harry really is a tool.  Sigh.  

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I was actually thinking that the Elder Brother and Howland simply could have known each other for a while. Howland is canny about his travels, and would likely need to feel out for reliable allies and hubs. Since crannogmen seem to be around the area, and we already know the Elder Brother to be good with keeping mum on identities, it's certainly a possibility. In that case, Howland may not have been following Brienne--it could simply be that he was checking in for information.

It's entirely possible that Howland knows Elder Brother and it may even be that Stark contacted Howland through Elder Brother.  I think Sweetsunray's proposal that Ser Shadrich was feeling out Brienne's intentions are correct.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As always you are bringing another wonderful (arcane??) idea that was floated before GOT,  when all we had was this story and fan art and really fun music.  This needs it's own topic!  We could talk about color and gemstones and fun things.  Thanks for that LynnS.

  The rubies speak to the fiery side oft he equation and perhaps to glamoring as well if Mel is anything to go by.

So I wonder if there are seven characters who will in some way advance the joining of ice and fire. 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

 

 I think this is referencing the human heart and not necessarily ice or fire wights.  Sansa is transitioning from a caged songbird to the mockingbird and eventually a hawk, a bird of prey.  Her survival may depend on developing a heart of ice, metaphorically speaking.  I think she will decide when to reveal herself.

Howland, Elder Brother and Sandor are the knights who will protect her if the assumptions about their identities is correct.  Howland already knows who she is and his allegiance is to House Stark above all other considerations.  But in the end, fire and ice must join together and love has to conquer hate.

Brienne might also be on an ice and fire quest of another kind, if she is another one of the rubies..

We get some foreshadowing that House Stark and Arryn will be joined together here:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

 

 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's entirely possible that Howland knows Elder Brother and it may even be that Stark contacted Howland through Elder Brother.  I think Sweetsunray's proposal that Ser Shadrich was feeling out Brienne's intentions are correct.

Shadrick is not Howland.  His actions make no sense if he is.  His comments about a reward made Brienne want nothing to do with him.  If he is interested in helping Sansa, he has driven off a potential ally, and a valuable one at that.  Alternatively, if Brienne was interested in the reward, he has an inconvenient companion he has to shake off.  Neither makes sense.

Also, he is coming from Kings Landing, where he could hope to accomplish nothing.  Rescuing a young girl from a well defended castle and traveling across an active war zone, dodging search parties, is not a feasible plan.  Especially when said girl has no reason to trust you.

I think Shadrick went to the Vale for a steady paycheck.  He might have figured out who Alayne really is, but I see no good way to take advantage of that knowledge.  If he kidnaps her, he has to take an unhappy captive through unfriendly country, and on a boat as well.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

As always you are bringing another wonderful (arcane??) idea that was floated before GOT,  when all we had was this story and fan art and really fun music.  This needs it's own topic!  We could talk about color and gemstones and fun things.  Thanks for that LynnS.  

I am never clear in Sansa's reveal.  My reading of certain aspects of this ASOIAF lend to some less popular outcomes in TWOW, such as this here tourney in the Vale.  Surely this is a critical event in our prophecies, given their importance in the past?  I always sort of imagined Little Finger would er, uncover Sansa, when it suited him and he was best positioned to make some sort of military move.   Hmm, wasn't there some heavy campaigning happening at Harrenhal?  I imagine Rhaegar with elegance only a popular person can manifest.  He was a big deal, but this guy?  No, whatever happens it will be bloody and somehow inept.  Remember when Theon decided he was the prince of Winterfell?  Yah, that sort of inept.   Look for big opportunities to discern some finer strokes of LF's real ambition.  

While I would love to ensure Sansa's safety I'm not sure I want her to be rescued.  Let's see what she's really learned.  Who are her allies?  This enduring captivity of hers has to be bugging her as much as it bugs me.  I want to see who she thinks she can trust or invoke some loyalty.  Yes, I am a sap.  I was hoping Sansa would completely win Harry over and he grew some act right because she needs to win a thing or two.  Hostages need need some hope.  But there is no denying Harry really is a tool.  Sigh.  

I think Sansa will become the master of her own destiny.   That's her story, as well as her siblings'.  Up to now, their stories have been dictated by the actions and interests of others.  It's time for them to start doing things on their own, for their own reasons. 

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think Shadrick went to the Vale for a steady paycheck.  He might have figured out who Alayne really is, but I see no good way to take advantage of that knowledge.  If he kidnaps her, he has to take an unhappy captive through unfriendly country, and on a boat as well.

I think Sansa will become the master of her own destiny.   That's her story, as well as her siblings'.  Up to now, their stories have been dictated by the actions and interests of others.  It's time for them to start doing things on their own, for their own reasons. 

I cannot speak to the HR=MM idea as I don't believe I've read the post but it sure looks like a fun read and I always learn something when @sweetsunray is posting.  I want Sansa to become the master of her own destiny.   This little tale is no less about redemption and coming of age than the cost of war.  I want to see Sansa do her own engineering and politicking.  I want her to have a say--no, take a say.  I want her to be the noble, respectable and beloved ruler her father was.  

I think you are right about the paycheck for Shadrick.  Working for LF is delicious if he's double crossing LF for Varys.  Wonder what Varys would do with Sansa if he had her anyway?  I expect plenty of backstabbing, posturing and double crossing at the Winged Knights Tourney.  I hope there are mystery knights and other surprises right under LF's scheming nose.  Waiting for someone to imagine if Jamie or Brienne may just show up in the Vale to collect their prize for their boss--so many things could go so terribly wrong at this tournament.  I count 3 potential kidnappings--equitable with a good Dothraki wedding, my friend.  

[HoodedCrow]

Sandor would recognize Sansa.. Arya, Jon and Bran would recognize her. Tyrion knows her.  Cersei would recognize her. Both Theon and fArya know her well. Littlefinger knows who she is.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

  The rubies speak to the fiery side oft he equation and perhaps to glamoring as well if Mel is anything to go by.

So I wonder if there are seven characters who will in some way advance the joining of ice and fire. 

 I think this is referencing the human heart and not necessarily ice or fire wights.  Sansa is transitioning from a caged songbird to the mockingbird and eventually a hawk, a bird of prey.  Her survival may depend on developing a heart of ice, metaphorically speaking.  I think she will decide when to reveal herself.

Howland, Elder Brother and Sandor are the knights who will protect her if the assumptions about their identities is correct.  Howland already knows who she is and his allegiance is to House Stark above all other considerations.  But in the end, fire and ice must join together and love has to conquer hate.

Brienne might also be on an ice and fire quest of another kind, if she is another one of the rubies..

We get some foreshadowing that House Stark and Arryn will be joined together here:

 

You threw Brienne in there to make me think about rubies again.  It would be a relief to see Sansa take the sort of risk revealing herself would be.  She is always in such dangerous predicaments.  But I could get behind her thwarting LF's nefarious plan--maybe to bankrupt the Vale or starve them!  Maybe some nasty alliance he could make with the Boltons. I think she could muster it for a really good huge reason.  Who would she reveal herself to?  Miranda?  Royce?  Harry?  Lothor? The Wainwood woman?  Shadrick?  A crowd?  I would go with Mya and make a quick escape!  OK, maybe a safe escape.  

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Shadrick is not Howland.  His actions make no sense if he is.  His comments about a reward made Brienne want nothing to do with him.  If he is interested in helping Sansa, he has driven off a potential ally, and a valuable one at that.  Alternatively, if Brienne was interested in the reward, he has an inconvenient companion he has to shake off.  Neither makes sense.

I think it's a cover story.  Something that Howland is using to determine intent.  It makes sense if this is a way for Howland to uncover anyone else who might be hunting her.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You threw Brienne in there to make me think about rubies again.  It would be a relief to see Sansa take the sort of risk revealing herself would be.  She is always in such dangerous predicaments.  But I could get behind her thwarting LF's nefarious plan--maybe to bankrupt the Vale or starve them!  Maybe some nasty alliance he could make with the Boltons. I think she could muster it for a really good huge reason.  Who would she reveal herself to?  Miranda?  Royce?  Harry?  Lothor? The Wainwood woman?  Shadrick?  A crowd?  I would go with Mya and make a quick escape!  OK, maybe a safe escape.  

With winter coming on, where would she go?  She's safest in the Vale.  Sansa is learning how to move from pawn to player.  Eventually, she could be promoted to Queen.  She still has a lot to learn about the game from LF.   She's also changing and losing any notions of romance and sentimentality.  Her internal monologue in TWOW is the opposite of what she presents. 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think it's a cover story.  Something that Howland is using to determine intent.  It makes sense if this is a way for Howland to uncover anyone else who might be hunting her.

He already knows she's looking for her.  His talk of a reward could make her join or follow him, which could be inconvenient if he's lying and she's interested in money. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I cannot speak to the HR=MM idea as I don't believe I've read the post but it sure looks like a fun read and I always learn something when @sweetsunray is posting.  I want Sansa to become the master of her own destiny.   This little tale is no less about redemption and coming of age than the cost of war.  I want to see Sansa do her own engineering and politicking.  I want her to have a say--no, take a say.  I want her to be the noble, respectable and beloved ruler her father was.  

I think you are right about the paycheck for Shadrick.  Working for LF is delicious if he's double crossing LF for Varys.  Wonder what Varys would do with Sansa if he had her anyway?  I expect plenty of backstabbing, posturing and double crossing at the Winged Knights Tourney.  I hope there are mystery knights and other surprises right under LF's scheming nose.  Waiting for someone to imagine if Jamie or Brienne may just show up in the Vale to collect their prize for their boss--so many things could go so terribly wrong at this tournament.  I count 3 potential kidnappings--equitable with a good Dothraki wedding, my friend.  

I remember sweetsunray.  She could have good ideas but bad ones as well.  I had several long-running arguments with her.  This was one.

I think Varys's reward was as Master of Whispers.  This was around the time of Tyrion's escape so Varys was still around.  I think Shadrick is no more or less than he appears to be.  Still could cause trouble,  though. 

While something could happen at the tournament, I think the timing is too tight for Brienne or Sandor to show up.  And a kidnapping takes her story in the wrong direction.  She needs to be more in charge, not less.  A kidnapping is someone else doing stuff to her - again.

[Raven Princling]

I think LF's plan will not come to fruition, partly due to the fact that he has kept certain aspects of it to himself. It is too laid out and explained to go smoothly, if that makes sense. Myranda and others figuring out Alayne is not really Alayne will surely play a part too.

I do think it will be by Sansa's own volition, but there will have to be someone there to validate it.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I remember sweetsunray.  She could have good ideas but bad ones as well.  I had several long-running arguments with her.  This was one.

I'm haven't really thought about alternate identities for the 3 knights other than Ser Shadrich.  But I'm not opposed to it.  I thought the same thing you do about Ser Shadrich for a long time.  I keep coming back to it because of his sigil.  An albino mouse is an odd device to pick because of the old god connotation.  The question I ask about Howland is how he will be introduced to the story if GRRM is planning to use him as a character. I don't think he will come striding out of the marshes and announce himself.  I've come to the same conclusion about Howland as Sweetsunray but I come by it another way.

Sorry, I'm not into long running arguments.  We shouldn't derail the thread.

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

With winter coming on, where would she go?  She's safest in the Vale.  Sansa is learning how to move from pawn to player.  Eventually, she could be promoted to Queen.  She still has a lot to learn about the game from LF.   She's also changing and losing any notions of romance and sentimentality.  Her internal monologue in TWOW is the opposite of what she presents. 

That's a great question, LynnS--where the heck would she go?   I am imagining a less severe winter in the southern regions but who knows--there will be travel even where winter hits hardest.  I am impatient for things to get moving--characters to get moving and I really want to see LF's demise in the most humiliating way possible.   Alayne is an interesting persona--correcting her thoughts about Ned and all.  

 

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

He already knows she's looking for her.  His talk of a reward could make her join or follow him, which could be inconvenient if he's lying and she's interested in money. 

I remember sweetsunray.  She could have good ideas but bad ones as well.  I had several long-running arguments with her.  This was one.

I think Varys's reward was as Master of Whispers.  This was around the time of Tyrion's escape so Varys was still around.  I think Shadrick is no more or less than he appears to be.  Still could cause trouble,  though. 

While something could happen at the tournament, I think the timing is too tight for Brienne or Sandor to show up.  And a kidnapping takes her story in the wrong direction.  She needs to be more in charge, not less.  A kidnapping is someone else doing stuff to her - again.

Yah kidnapping is another transport to captivity though loopholes are possible.  And I think loopholes could be possible in a kidnapping by any of our potential suspects, but all scenarios are a rescue and I want to see her get herself out of her current predicament.  

Love your stance on Shadrick only being what he appears to be because I find him pretty interesting--he's been looking for Sansa and identifies her as a bag of dragons (IIRC).   Further interesting because Brienne has been all over the place looking for her and Sansa sort of falls into his lap.   This tournament is drawing characters.   I can't wait to see who shows up unexpectedly.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

-he's been looking for Sansa and identifies her as a bag of dragons (IIRC).

This to me is the strongest evidence that, whatever his backstory and intentions may be, Shadrich has knowledge that Brienne does not have. Even accepting that he simply chanced upon Petyr in Gulltown and happened to meet Sansa while the Vale, it's nevertheless quite striking that Shadrich has concluded that the young woman named Alayne Stone is indeed Sansa Stark, his proverbial bag of gold.

How can Shadrich know this? Here are some possibilities:

1) He has met Sansa before

2) He has met Catelyn and Ned, and has a good idea of what their kids might look like

3) Someone in his party knows Sansa and has identified her

The essay I linked to above tried to offer some possible explanation of this knowledge that Shadrich has. While the explanation provided could very well be wrong, any other theory will nevertheless have to provide some way to explain this knowledge.

[BlackLightning]

On 11/17/2021 at 2:24 PM, StarksInTheNorth said:

I'm thinking there's a chance she hears it from one of the Three Sisters, especially since the duckish Sunderland boys were mentioned. The Sisters are a passage between north and south and it would be really easy for them to bemoan not getting to go and that they're very excited to be at the Gates. If they say "the wedding of the Bastard of Bolton to the Stark girl" she could be jolted out, the way she was with Myranda and "the new lord commander, some son of Ned Stark's."

Exactly.

Not only will Sansa naturally be more curious about Arya's marriage to Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard son (as well as the general state of the North) but she'll also be able to get away with asking questions about them.

Not so with Jon.

Not that she doesn't care but because what kind of business does a bastard daughter of a high lord have asking about the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t think Harry will hurt Sansa—I don’t think he’s long for the world, to be honest—but I am worried about how far Littlefinger will go with her. He’s already forcibly kissed her, ordered her to kiss him, made her sit on his lap, and touched her chest. Is he going to make her take a bath with him next?  I’m positive that we’re going to get at least one or two uncomfortable scenes between them in TWOW. It will be interesting to see if she eventually gets fed up and tells him to stop though, and how he’ll handle that. In ASOS he just ignored her pleas, but Sansa is older now—emotionally, at least—and she might be more defiant.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think Harry will hurt Sansa—I don’t think he’s long for the world, to be honest—but I am worried about how far Littlefinger will go with her. He’s already forcibly kissed her, ordered her to kiss him, made her sit on his lap, and touched her chest. Is he going to make her take a bath with him next?  I’m positive that we’re going to get at least one or two uncomfortable scenes between them in TWOW. It will be interesting to see if she eventually gets fed up and tells him to stop though, and how he’ll handle that. In ASOS he just ignored her pleas, but Sansa is older now—emotionally, at least—and she might be more defiant.

I'm guessing she'll plan his demise before he decides she has no longer any use to him .

[HoodedCrow]

I believe that Harry the Heir Hardyng is a red shirt. His name is too silly.