Cancel Culture… can we talk about it (isn’t it just boycotts)?

[Kalbear]

Imo, you shouldn't deport Russians anyway if you want to hurt Russia. You should accept a crazy amount of Russians to get green cards or their equivalent and have them go away from Russia instead. Drain Russia of every useful, smart, trained person they have while also demonstrating a better way of life.

[Luzifer's right hand]

People in the circles Mlle. Zabzie moves are often ... flexible when it comes to ethics and morals on the job side of life. At least that is the picture I have of her.

 

I read her post in that light and was sure that she made the decision based on more than just nationality.

 

I mean this is not an anonymous subreddit we know people at least somewhat.

[Week]

18 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

Imo, you shouldn't deport Russians anyway if you want to hurt Russia. You should accept a crazy amount of Russians to get green cards or their equivalent and have them go away from Russia instead. Drain Russia of every useful, smart, trained person they have while also demonstrating a better way of life.

100% agree - Swalwell and some other Dems have been dead wrong on this issue.

15 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

People in the circles Mlle. Zabzie moves are often ... flexible when it comes to ethics and morals on the job side of life. At least that is the picture I have of her.

 

I read her post in that light and was sure that she made the decision based on more than just nationality.

 

I mean this is not an anonymous subreddit we know people at least somewhat.

QFT

[Ran]

To be frank, I was making the assumption that MZ wouldn't have co-chaired something relatively frivolous with someone who works for the oligarchs and the corrupt state government of Russia to begin with, so that's definitely on me.

 

 

 

 

[Week]

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s hilarious how quickly you jump to ‘bad faith’ when you don’t agree. Just admit that you kinda fucked up, you were so eager to position yourself as ‘whatever the opposite of cancel culture is’ that you went full circle round to racist. It’s cool, it’s cleared up now. We all make mistakes.

Certainly quite an impressive yarn you've spun here. I hope you are impressed with it. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

42 minutes ago, Ran said:

To be frank, I was making the assumption that MZ wouldn't have co-chaired something relatively frivolous with someone who works for the oligarchs and the corrupt state government of Russia to begin with, so that's definitely on me.

 

 

 

 

Lol.  Yeah.  I mean, I think I’ve been pretty clear that I am a partner at a very, very, very large law firm.  And some of my clients aren’t the best of people or organizations.  This is simply true.  And I don’t live my life in black and white (most of us don’t).  

And honestly her connections are not something that I really focused on when I agreed to do this back in October.  It’s sort of presented to you in a vacuum and then you are suddenly on an email chain being asked to sign off on a poorly worded fundraising appeal.

[Fragile Bird]

14 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Yeah that is a disturbing thing to read.  I doubt we'll see anything approaching the detention camps for Japanese Nationals and Japanese Americans during WWII, though, nor the islamophobia and racism that followed 9/11.  

In my very liberal rural hometown in Connecticut post 9/11, there were dummies of Saddam Hussein(!) and Osama BL hung from trees and pickup trucks with "Nuke Iraq" spray painted on the tailgates and back windows.  

That said there I've seen plenty of xenophobia and racism on social media the last couple days, from the right of course but also from moderates and some liberals.  

I have been trying to interpret this bizarre post all evening. Detention camps? What have you been smoking? Did I say anything about detention camps? And you know, there has never been a lynching in Canada other that a lynching of a black teen in BC in the late 1800s when Americans chased him across the border and hanged him from a Canadian  tree, and then the governor of the state (Washington state, iirc) refused to extradite the lynching mob members back to Canada.

Do you think if Biden ordered Russian citizens out of the US anyone in the US is going to say he can't do that? Do you think the US Supreme Court is going to say the US government can't order Russian citizens or diplomats or trade representatives out of the country? Should the Canadian government not be allowed to send Russians out of the country as part of it's efforts to punish Russia for it's attack on Ukraine?

What did I say? I said if Russia was successful in taking over Ukraine we should deport Russians out of Canada. Russians. Not Canadians of Russian heritage whose families immigrated here 100 years ago, not Canadians of Russian heritage who immigrated here last year. For one thing, you can't deport a Canadian citizen. (Well, except that the last Conservative government, jealous of the fact the US can strip immigrants of their US citizenship, passed a law allowing the Canadian government to strip immigrants of their Canadian citizenship, and I don't think the Trudeau government has repealed the law.) For another, no Canadian, myself included, would agree to that. Nor any Russian with refugee status, nor any Russian with Landed Immigrant status, meaning the Immigration department probably spent three years or more looking into their backgrounds and approved them as immigrants. I suspect that the Supreme Court of Canada would take a very hard line with any government that tried to revoke landed immigrant status merely because the immigrants came from a country at war.

Russians. I'm sure there are thousands of them in this country. I also said that right now I'd shut down their trade offices in Canada, tell Russia to send a lot of their 'diplomats' ie spies, likely spying on Canadians of Ukrainian heritage among others, home to Moscow, and restrict travel rights. We're putting all kinds of sanctions on Russia, just like the rest of the world, so those trade offices aren't exactly needed, are they.

Of course, from the tone in the Ukrainian war thread it sounds like everyone thinks the Russians are not going to be successful in their Ukrainian takeover plans, so my call to deport Russians is likely moot. I hope the Russians are driven out of Ukraine, either by the military or by diplomatic means, but I'm not as optimistic as some people are in that thread.

So, please do tell, what is so horrific about that? Do you think if a Russian is in the US doing business the US government has no right to order them out? Does setting foot on US soil give them a god given right to stay in the US? Or are you and HoI (truly, no one on this board has a more appropriate name than that guy) just mythologizing out of thin air the idea that I said deport every person with Russian heritage out of Canada? Now that is truly offensive.

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

 

So, please do tell, what is so horrific about that? Do you think if a Russian is in the US doing business the US government has no right to order them out? Does setting foot on US soil give them a god given right to stay in the US? Or are you and HoI (truly, no one on this board has a more appropriate name than that guy) just mythologizing out of thin air the idea that I said deport every person with Russian heritage out of Canada? Now that is truly offensive.

Wow, you wrote a wall of text defending yourself and it makes you sound even worse!

[Ran]

12 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

And honestly her connections are not something that I really focused on when I agreed to do this back in October.  It’s sort of presented to you in a vacuum and then you are suddenly on an email chain being asked to sign off on a poorly worded fundraising appeal.

Totally understandable. I don't work in and am not anywhere near your field, but as @Luzifer's right hand said you are definitely in a milieu where you have to work or associate with all sorts and it's just how things have to work for things to be done. 

Before the pandemic, a representative of a subsidiary of a very major Chinese company (that has had some controversies regarding its connections to the state) had floated the idea of Linda and I flying over for some talks tangential to our work with George and ASoIaF, and I admit the ethical quandry of whether it was okay to do that or not did cross my mind. (And yet, I'm typing this all on a keyboard assembled in China, reading it on a monitor assembled in China, run on a computer with a motherboard from China, have a Chinese smartphone and a China-made tablet, etc., etc.....)

Fortunately/unfortunately, the pandemic came and that put an end to that talk.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Do you think if Biden ordered Russian citizens out of the US anyone in the US is going to say he can't do that? Do you think the US Supreme Court is going to say the US government can't order Russian citizens or diplomats or trade representatives out of the country? Should the Canadian government not be allowed to send Russians out of the country as part of it's efforts to punish Russia for it's attack on Ukraine?

I'd like to think that someone would say he can't do that and that yes, Supreme Court would say he couldn't do it. If it's legal to have president order deportation of people who are in the country legally and have done nothing wrong, and their only "ofense" being that they are members of a specific ethnic group, then US residents really need to think whether that's the country they like to live in. I'm not talking whether or not US government would be able to physically do it since it's obvious they would, with all the police force and military at their disposal. I'm talking about legality and even morality of that.

[A wilding]

7 minutes ago, baxus said:

I'd like to think that someone would say he can't do that and that yes, Supreme Court would say he couldn't do it. If it's legal to have president order deportation of people who are in the country legally and have done nothing wrong, and their only "ofense" being that they are members of a specific ethnic group, then US residents really need to think whether that's the country they like to live in. I'm not talking whether or not US government would be able to physically do it since it's obvious they would, with all the police force and military at their disposal. I'm talking about legality and even morality of that.

@Fragile Bird said "Russian citizens". Not quite the same as "specific ethnic group".

[baxus]

4 minutes ago, A wilding said:

@Fragile Bird said "Russian citizens". Not quite the same as "specific ethnic group".

Does it change things that much? Do you think average Westerner differentiates between Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus, Tatar, Chechens, Tatars and all other ethnic groups that live in Russia or would they lump them all in as "Russians" anyway?

I'm talking about people who did nothing wrong being punished for something someone else did.

EDIT:

The very fact that you decided to focus on that "difference" also speaks volumes.

[A wilding]

If you are at war with a country then it is routine for a government to expel or intern citizens of that country. So in a situation not far short of war it is not completely unreasonable for a president to consider doing the same.

Mob harassment of citizens of such a country, or of people who look like they might be citizens, is a separate issue.

[Crixus]

Agree with @baxus. I am a Pakistani national living and working in a foreign country. I'm law-abiding, liberal and haven't ever supported any shitty actions of my government. If my government decides to do something fucked up tomorrow, does that mean I should get summarily kicked out of where I live? Lose my livelihood, my flat, friends and in short, the entire life I've built up over years? Or does someone get to decide if I'm worthy of staying, based on... my social media history? Demanding I make an unequivocal statement condemning my country of origin? Proving I am not a spy, somehow? Having the means and opportunity to apply for citizenship (a lot of countries don't make that easy or even possible FYI)? What, exactly, would be the criteria for judging me acceptable and allowing me to remain, and who gets to decide it?

This conversation is verging on gross, especially from the point of view of a South Asian female expat (an already mariginalised and discriminated against identity in a shit-ton of places the world over) who's been working hard to make a life for herself in another country. It's fucking vile. 

[A wilding]

Sure, it is a shitty position and it is easy to sympathise with such people. War is unpleasant and causes widespread suffering, and a country that is fighting one is going to kill and otherwise harm people.

But look at it from the other side. Suppose (FSM forbid) my country (the UK) was at war with Russia. There are many Russian nationals in the UK, many with close ties back to Russia. Many are wealthy and have used that wealth to gain influence with the British government and the news media. They have also to made use of the courts and the draconian privacy and libel laws here to limit criticism or even scrutiny of their actions. (Even now there are accusations that their influence is being used to try to soften UK sanctions against Russia.) Should the UK allow them to continue to act unhindered if the UK was at war with their country? And could it afford to take the time and effort to scrutinise every person instead of making a blanket decision?

As a concrete example, in WW2 the UK interned all German and Italian citizens in the UK. From all I have read it was possibly overkill, but the rationale behind it was clear to both sides. It was not much fun for them, but not too horrific either, and probably even saved some of them from mobs. I have never seen any serious claim that it was an atrocity, or even a mistake. One of the consequences was that the Germans never managed to set up even a single intelligence network within the UK, which may well have had a significant impact on the war's progress.

It is a messy world and we cannot entirely disentangle ourselves from the country we are citizens of. Given the recent trajectory of the UK I have some faint understanding of the pain this can cause. But if you really abhor the actions of your government then you indeed at least sometimes have the option of applying for citizenship elsewhere, however difficult that may sometimes be. I, for example, have several friends and acquaintances who have become citizens of other European countries recently.

I guess that my conclusion is that war is horrible and to be avoided. Which makes a good argument to try to make sure that the current Ukrainian war ends in a way that will discourage Putin and his like from starting them.

[Crixus]

@A wilding

Are those friends of yours British? It's probably much easier for a UK citizen to get EU citizenship than it is for a Pakistani to get a UAE citizenship - in fact, UAE does not give non Emiratis citizenship at all. And it isn't exactly easy for someone at my stage in life to apply for a US, UK, Canadian etc. citizenship.

I think this is part of the frustration I'm feeling today, reading through some of the points being tossed around pretty cavalierly around here. No matter how kind and liberal you fancy yourself, I don't think you can understand a fraction of what someone who doesn't have the benefit of a specific identity and background faces in her day to day life. Even reading your view on how internment wasn't 'too bad' for Italians/Germans in WW2 comes across rather dismissive and, to be frank, chilling. I'm sure your intentions are good, but you don't seem to appreciate where I am coming from. I came to the UAE after ending a shitty, abusive marriage back home, a country where divorce is still seen as taboo and divorced women are targeted. I managed to make a successful life for myself elsewhere. The mere idea of being forcibly sent back is terrifying.

Sure, it's a messy world and practical solutions are never ideal, but the fact is, usually the fallout is disproportionately on people like me. Posing such solutions in a matter of fact, detached way doesn't have the effect you may imagine it does. 

And of course, apologies if I haven't come across as entirely coherent - English isn't my first language. 

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Does it change things that much? Do you think average Westerner differentiates between Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus, Tatar, Chechens, Tatars and all other ethnic groups that live in Russia or would they lump them all in as "Russians" anyway?

I'm talking about people who did nothing wrong being punished for something someone else did.

EDIT:

The very fact that you decided to focus on that "difference" also speaks volumes.

I don't think it does change anything. The assumption here is that 'Russian Nationals' means Oligarchs or the super rich. Except the reality isn't that at all. I work with a couple of Russians right now, really get on well with them, they are totally against Putin and the war. They are about as far from an Oligarch or spy as you can imagine.
Some sort of blanket deportation of them based purely on xenophobic fear that they are undercover spies like in The Americans is really not something I am on board with. 

It is really disturbing that so much rhetoric on this board is about racism and equality, but at the drop of a hat the same people have zero qualms about lumping in people into one group based purely on their nationality. They also do it with skin colour, and it's a real eye opener. 

[A wilding]

I am sorry for your experiences, and agree that I come from a position of privilege and that tone on the internet can be a difficult thing to get right.

But, for the record, while I myself am fully British, I have close German connections and think that I have a reasonably good 2nd and 3rd hand understanding of the experiences of German citizens during and after WW2. When I was younger I met people who had been interned.

Edit: Replying to @Crixus

[polishgenius]

Wow, this thread took a turn for the funking bonkers. Kicking out every national of a belligerent country regardless of if there's any evidence that they're there to do harm on behalf of that country sounds like something a Putin would do 

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It is really disturbing that so much rhetoric on this board is about racism and equality, but at the drop of a hat the same people have zero qualms about lumping in people into one group based purely on their nationality. They also do it with skin colour, and it's a real eye opener. 

So you no longer believe that restricting immigration based on culture a la Brexiteers is totally justified anymore?

I'm not in agreement with Fragile Bird here. I can appreciate some limited instances of expelling folks tied to the regime, in extreme circumstances potentially. Or taking personal action to distance from an individual/institution affiliated with the regime (a la Zabz). Wholesale expulsion of a nationality makes no sense in any permutation to me. As someone that abhors the lazy slippery slope arguments made here -- it does not feel far from the Japanese detention of WWII which is completely, utterly unacceptable.