Cancel Culture… can we talk about it (isn’t it just boycotts)?

[JoannaL]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s not always essential to change every individuals bad view on topic. 

Their silence on it can be what can be what can be reasonably hoped for.

Here you are wrong. The goal must always be to convince.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

There isn’t really a middle ground.

Pro-life starts at the position of depriving the ability to end a pregnancy.

pro-choice gives people the choice to end or keep the pregnancy.

 

Yes there is. In Germany, 30 or so years ago (before the advent of cancel culture) we decided that abortion is unlawful (so pro life got something) but should not be punished (pro choice)  and is allowed for 12 weeks (pro choice) after counseling (pro life). there is always some grumbleing but all in all it works well. I was shocked when  I came to the States and learned how violently fought over this subject still is. All in all, the more controversial way seems not to have the better results - at least not for women in red states.

Not in all cases is a middle ground possible, but in many more than you think. If you are respectful of your opponent and listen and try to understand their point of view it is also much easier to come to said middle ground.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Here you are wrong. The goal must always be to convince.

extremists do love to frame themselves as people who need to be convinced specifically in order for their opposition to have legitimacy.

 

In America for the sake of “debate” many states crammed in creationist drivel in biology textbooks. As a result nearly half our believes Adam rode dinosaurs. And probably helped lead to a good chunk to think that global warming is a hoax.

2 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Yes there is. In Germany, 30 or so years ago (before the advent of cancel culture) we decided that abortion is unlawful (so pro life got something) but should not be punished (pro choice)  and is allowed for 12 weeks (pro choice) after counseling (pro life).

Dude come on, I thought you recognized everything that has been  cried as the cancel culture has been around well before 30 years. 
Except for maybe angry people on Twitter. 

And from what you’re describing the pro-choice got way more quite frankly.

What use is something being unlawful if there’s punishment at least in practice for it? 
 

2 hours ago, JoannaL said:

I was shocked when  I came to the States and learned how violently fought over this subject still is

Well there is a lot more debate and tolerance of vitriolic language from far-right figures in the public square.

Germany has a far shorter view of what qualifies as “free speech” and so public discourse is more tamed.

3 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Not in all cases is a middle ground possible, but in many more than you think.

Not all cases, I agree, it depends on the case in question.

3 hours ago, JoannaL said:

If you are respectful of your opponent and listen and try to understand their point of view it is also much easier to come to said middle ground.

Sometimes.

[karaddin]

8 hours ago, JoannaL said:

 Just today I read about a opinion poll here in Germany that 10 years ago 70% of the questioned thought they were not limited in free speech, now only 45 % think so. No laws were changed in this time (there are laws against insulting and holocaust denying and such, all these laws older than 10 years), so this is not about the state. 

A poll like that is measuring perception not actuality and a change in perception can be caused just as easily by the media frequently reporting on it as a problem and social media acting like it's the biggest threat to society ever, even if absolutely nothing else has changed. 

[Zorral]

However the opponent not being respectful, not listening and not knowing anything factual or scientific or anything else, cancels that right the eff out.

[Martell Spy]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

However the opponent not being respectful, not listening and not knowing anything factual or scientific or anything else, cancels that right the eff out.

I think there's an underestimating by some in this thread about how crazy American conservatives have become. I used to listen to all sorts of right-wing talk radio. I've never been any sort of conservative, but I liked to listen to other viewpoints. I had to stop around 2014 I think it was. There was just this huge spike in racist language by the hosts. It felt like I was condoning this or taking part in this by listening, so I stopped. It obviously spiked because of Obama.

I'm very leery of clicking on conservative websites in the current day. There are a couple I read, but I'm right to be suspect about what I might see. 

[Week]

Bumping this for @Heartofice to continue his confused, nonsensical thread derail replete with unsupported accusations of xenophobia due to *checks notes* resigning from as co-chair for fundraising for a Law School to instead focus on support for refugees and asylum seekers.

Why don't you believe that refugees and asylum seekers should be supported? Do you hate all refugees? Why do you think they we should leave them to die? 

[Heartofice]

Just now, Week said:

Bumping this for @Heartofice to continue his confused, nonsensical thread derail replete with unsupported accusations of xenophobia due to *checks notes* resigning from as co-chair for fundraising for a Law School to instead focus on support for refugees and asylum seekers.

Why don't you believe that refugees and asylum seekers should be supported? Do you hate all refugees? Why do you think they we should leave them to die? 

 

Cool thanks. Interested to hear your thoughts on why its ok to discriminate against people based on their nationality. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Just now, Week said:

Bumping this for @Heartofice to continue his confused, nonsensical thread derail replete with unsupported accusations of xenophobia due to *checks notes* resigning from as co-chair for fundraising for a Law School to instead focus on support for refugees and asylum seekers.

Why don't you believe that refugees and asylum seekers should be supported? Do you hate all refugees? Why do you think they we should leave them to die? 

 

To be fair, and I’m the resignor, I don’t think HOI was suggested they were against refugees or asylum seekers. I think they were against the resignation and felt the resignation was xenophobic.  Which they can think.

[Week]

1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

To be fair, and I’m the resignor, I don’t think HOI was suggested they were against refugees or asylum seekers. I think they were against the resignation and felt the resignation was xenophobic.  Which they can think.

I know -- I'm responding with similar faith and grace that he typically offers.

[Heartofice]

Just now, Mlle. Zabzie said:

To be fair, and I’m the resignor, I don’t think HOI was suggested they were against refugees or asylum seekers. I think they were against the resignation and felt the resignation was xenophobic.  Which they can think.

To be fair you have cleared it up and its good to hear it wasn't based purely on nationality. What I was quite disgusted by is how readily other posters were happy to cheer the idea of discriminating against Russians. 
 

9 minutes ago, Week said:

I know -- I'm responding with similar faith and grace that he typically offers.

why is it ok to discriminate against people based on their nationality? do you want to answer or are you running away again?

[Relic]

12 minutes ago, Week said:

I know -- I'm responding with similar faith and grace that he typically offers.

What the fuck? Why would you do that? Fucking kindergarten bullshit. 

[Week]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

To be fair you have cleared it up and its good to hear it wasn't based purely on nationality. What I was quite disgusted by is how readily other posters were happy to cheer the idea of discriminating against Russians. 
 

why is it ok to discriminate against people based on their nationality? do you want to answer or are you running away again?

I never said it was and I don't believe that it is. How you extrapolate that is an impressive bit of bad faith and obnoxious behavior. Not surprising for an Andy N*o apologist.

[Week]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

What the fuck? Why would you do that? Fucking kindergarten bullshit. 

Lol, ok - thanks Relic. Be well.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Week said:

I never said it was and I don't believe that it is. How you extrapolate that is an impressive bit of bad faith and obnoxious behavior. Not surprising for an Andy N*o apologist.

You just handwaved someone quitting a position because they were on with a Russian. How are you justifying this?

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

I never said it was and I don't believe that it is. How you extrapolate that is an impressive bit of bad faith and obnoxious behavior. Not surprising for an Andy N*o apologist.

It’s hilarious how quickly you jump to ‘bad faith’ when you don’t agree. Just admit that you kinda fucked up, you were so eager to position yourself as ‘whatever the opposite of cancel culture is’ that you went full circle round to racist. It’s cool, it’s cleared up now. We all make mistakes.

[Gorn]

My guess is that being Russian for the next couple of years will be the same as being Muslim in the years after 9/11.

Only this time, the hate will be driven by holier-than-thou "liberals".

[DMC]

This really seems like much ado about nothing.  When Zabz made her original post, I assumed she was doing it - because she mentioned the woman was living in Moscow and working for a US firm - because the clients of the woman's firm were Russian oligarchs, big business, or even organizations directly affiliated with the state.  Ya know, the exact individuals and groups that the entire world is trying to target with sanctions right now.  But, that wasn't really clear from that original post. 

I guess what I will say is, if other people took a different interpretation of that first post, maybe ask Zabz to clarify first before blowing things out of proportion - which she quickly did anyway without prompting.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, Gorn said:

My guess is that being Russian for the next couple of years will be the same as being Muslim in the years after 9/11.

Only this time, the hate will be driven by holier-than-thou "liberals".

@Fragile Bird made an even more appalling comment afterwards:

 

Quote

If worse came to worse (the takeover of Ukraine by Russia) I’d deport everyone with Russian citizenship  out of Canada unless they could prove they weren’t Putin supporters. I’d close down every trade office they have across the country right now and I’d tell the Russian embassy that they could only have a vastly reduced staff on hand and I’d restrict them to the capital city.

Isn't this pure Mccarthyism? Weren't there reprisals on Japanese Americans during WW2? I'm genuinely shocked at this sort of language. But also I'm sort of not, because it's curious that some of the posters who tend to be on a more leftist bent, are so happy to throw out genuinely xenophobic and racist language if it fits their mental model.

[Zorral]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I assumed she was doing it - because she mentioned the woman was living in Moscow and working for a US firm - because the clients of the woman's firm were Russian oligarchs, big business, or even organizations directly affiliated with the state.  Ya know, the exact individuals and groups that the entire world is trying to target with sanctions right now. 

So did I, and my assumption was based within the many other comments MZ seen here over the years, which have never been racist, anti-woman, gay, etc., or xenophobic, unlike many comments seen here over the years by others in this very thread and others over the years, including the entertainment threads.

And we don't share political outlooks.  I don't like rich people, even though a few are among our best friends -- but we keep very carefully w/in certain spheres, and don't interact in most of them -- and MZ does like and approve of rich people. But whereas she does exhibit a sense of humor very often, she never exhibits a bit of xenophobia, etc.

But it's not humorous that the ones who jumped on her and accused of her that, are the one who have shown that, over and over and over. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

@Fragile Bird made an even more appalling comment afterwards:

 

Isn't this pure Mccarthyism? Weren't there reprisals on Japanese Americans during WW2? I'm genuinely shocked at this sort of language. But also I'm sort of not, because it's curious that some of the posters who tend to be on a more leftist bent, are so happy to throw out genuinely xenophobic and racist language if it fits their mental model.

Yeah that is a disturbing thing to read.  I doubt we'll see anything approaching the detention camps for Japanese Nationals and Japanese Americans during WWII, though, nor the islamophobia and racism that followed 9/11.  

In my very liberal rural hometown in Connecticut post 9/11, there were dummies of Saddam Hussein(!) and Osama BL hung from trees and pickup trucks with "Nuke Iraq" spray painted on the tailgates and back windows.  

That said there I've seen plenty of xenophobia and racism on social media the last couple days, from the right of course but also from moderates and some liberals.