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Your Opinions 5: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"


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57 minutes ago, Ran said:

Where exactly were we supposed to get that reaction? He's not present in the scene where the news arrives in KL, and is not seen until many days later following Joff's death.

It should have been in a Sansa chapter, where he told her how much Cat's death effected him. Even if it's partially a lie, it would have been better than nothing.

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Very much disagree. The Littlefinger who doesn't go out of his way to talk about Catelyn's death is a perfectly valid choice, and is just as informative as the Littlefinger who does go out of his way.

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Don’t want to respond before getting a clearer idea of what you mean. What hang ups/issues with children do you mean? Like the Jon secret? 

If I wrote about the contradictions in the writing of Ned I would have to write a novel. Don't have time for that during the week. Might do it on a weekend.

 

But other things that make GRRM a bad writer? The lack of male/male rape in the detail and consistency that we have the constant raping of women/girls. He might do 'wink, wink' hints of a male character 'likes boys' but that's it. The Night's Watch chapters should be filled with mentions of rape. First of all not every castle has a Mole's Town attached to it. Second, most of the guys there are criminals. Where is the rape on the battle field? When your 'blood is up' there won't always be a woman handy.

The lack of pandemics or illnesses. This is still a world of poor hygiene, sometimes food shortages or lack of variety and poor medicine. Castles are often so big they might as well be little towns. And then there is King's Landing.

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7 minutes ago, sifth said:

It should have been in a Sansa chapter, where he told her how much Cat's death effected him. Even if it's partially a lie, it would have been better than nothing.

It likely would've just confused Sansa, and he is, well, smarter than that? He does something if it benefits him. Middle-aged man, always calculating, always calm and cunning, does not pour out his soul to child he wants to control in every way.

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8 minutes ago, sifth said:

It should have been in a Sansa chapter, where he told her how much Cat's death effected him. Even if it's partially a lie, it would have been better than nothing.

Him, though? His whole thing is inscrutability. I get what you’re saying, but LF’s arc begins with a lesson in the cost of being open about what he feels and wants. And that’s assuming he was in love with Cat for herself rathe than as a Daisy figure. 

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3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It likely would've just confused Sansa, and he is, well, smarter than that? He does something if it benefits him. Middle-aged man, always calculating, always calm and cunning, does not pour out his soul to child he wants to control in every way.

Yea, but Sansa seems to be Petyr's one week spot. It's more obvious on the show, but it's present in the books as well, so it would only stand to reason that he would share some of his real feelings with her; so she could eventually use them to defeat him.

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Just now, sifth said:

Yea, but Sansa seems to be Petyr's one week spot. It's more obvious on the show, but it's present in the books as well, so it would only stand to reason that he would share some of his real feelings with her; so she could eventually use them to defeat him.

Defeat him? I mean, with no feelings attached, it is easier and more beneficial to simply have him on your side. And Petyr could very well be the guy who will continue to bet on the right horse every single time, and comes out as a winner of the whole story. After all, why make him fail and fall, when everyone expects that?

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27 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Severe grief.

I'm not so sure about that. As others have said, he shifted his focus towards Sansa, and maybe even before he knew about the Red Wedding. The fact that he says nothing about Cat's death in AFFC could serve as further proof of that.

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What do you want to read? Romeo O Romeo? Pete ain't like that. But the fact is he does react to the RW but like any other Sansa chapter he spits nothing but fire because the author is like that

 

 

.

"They have the Vale."

"Oh, much of it, that's true. Not all, however. I am well loved in Gulltown, and have some lordly friends of mine own as well. Grafton, Lynderly, Lyonel Corbray . . . though I'll grant you, they are no match for the Lords Declarant. Still, where would you have us go, Alayne? Back to my mighty stronghold on the Fingers?"

She had thought about that. "Joffrey gave you Harrenhal. You are lord in your own right there."

"By title. I needed a great seat to marry Lysa, and the Lannisters were not about to grant me Casterly Rock."

"Yes, but the castle is yours."

"Ah, and what a castle it is. Cavernous halls and ruined towers, ghosts and draughts, ruinous to heat, impossible to garrison . . . and there's that small matter of a curse."

"Curses are only in songs and stories." That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Or about the sellsword before him, whose limbs Ser Gregor removed a joint at a time? That one took the castle from Ser Amory Lorch, who received it from Lord Tywin. A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs . . . Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it." user uploaded image

 "Then give it to Lord Frey."

Petyr laughed. "Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?"

The mention of the queen's name made her stiffen. "She's not kind. She scares me. If she should learn where I am—"

"—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." Petyr teased her with a little smile. "In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn

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51 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But other things that make GRRM a bad writer? The lack of male/male rape in the detail and consistency that we have the constant raping of women/girls. He might do 'wink, wink' hints of a male character 'likes boys' but that's it. The Night's Watch chapters should be filled with mentions of rape. First of all not every castle has a Mole's Town attached to it. Second, most of the guys there are criminals. Where is the rape on the battle field? When your 'blood is up' there won't always be a woman handy.

 

There's something about it in Victarion's chapters where the maester complains of being "used like a woman", only for Victarion to brush it off.

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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Defeat him? I mean, with no feelings attached, it is easier and more beneficial to simply have him on your side. And Petyr could very well be the guy who will continue to bet on the right horse every single time, and comes out as a winner of the whole story. After all, why make him fail and fall, when everyone expects that?

Yea, so a more satisfying story is to have Petry come out on top, after all of the trouble and chaos he's caused in this series?

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13 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, so a more satisfying story is to have Petry come out on top, after all of the trouble and chaos he's caused in this series?

Well, that would subvert expectations wouldn't it? The plucky hero who comes out on top after years of planning and scheming, but it means screwing over everyone else.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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I always interpreted LF’s lack of reaction to Cat’s death as a sign of his psychopathy. Tyrion often works as a voice for GRRM, especially early on, and he tells us point-blank in AGOT that LF isn’t capable of love and only desires Cat as an object and a status symbol. He certainly views Sansa that way. The moment he meets Sansa, who is both more beautiful and of an even higher birth than her mother, he seems to immediately switch gears to trying to attain her instead. Once Ned was imprisoned, LF could have easily started maneuvering to marry a soon-to-be widowed Cat. Instead he tried to persuade the Lannisters to let him marry her 11-year-old daughter. And LF actively aided the Lannisters in destroying Cat’s family for the first three books. Even if Cat had managed to survive, she would have been a broken woman. 

I’ve said this before, but I can’t imagine a funnier scene that GRRM could ever write than if LF somehow discovered that Sansa would rather bone the Hound than him. No matter what you think of the pairing, his indignation would be priceless :lmao:

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On the topic of Sansa, I must admit that I’m a bit conflicted about her endgame. GRRM’s confirmation that there has never been a Lady of Winterfell would seem to indicate that this is deliberate—it’s a tradition that’s being set up to be broken by the end of the series, like Asha with the Ironborn. But upon reflection, I really don’t think that Sansa’s arc has been about learning to rule. It’s been about diplomacy (which she started learning as a child but has picked up by osmosis in King’s Landing and the Vale), manipulation (LF loves monologuing to her about all his brilliant schemes), and being a mother figure (the Blackwater, Sweetrobin, and possibly to Bran and Rickon later on). LF really hasn’t been teaching her how to rule so much as how to persuade and manipulate. It’s more fitting for back room deals than ruling as the lady of a kingdom. I could see her using those skills to protect her family from their enemies, and I could see her being the mother of the next generation of Starks. But as a ruler herself? That doesn’t seem to be an overarching theme for her. If anything, her greatest desire (beyond going home) seems to be to be loved by someone who doesn’t want her for her claim. 

That said, if Bran becomes king and Jon is exiled, she’s all but certainly going to become the Lady of WF regardless. Unless of course Rickon lives to the end and the show just fridged him for no reason. George did say that some characters who were killed on the show will live in the books. . .

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On 6/21/2022 at 2:00 PM, SeanF said:

I wouldn’t say the goal was to usurp Jon, but with him on the Iron Throne, she gets to be Queen of an independent North, or failing that,  Princess of Dragonstone and Wardeness. And that mattered more to her than defeating the Others and Cersei.

I read a comment that made me laugh:-

“She’s the sort of person who’d disconnect your life support machine, in order to charge up her mobile phone.”

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9 hours ago, Mystical said:

If I wrote about the contradictions in the writing of Ned I would have to write a novel. Don't have time for that during the week. Might do it on a weekend.

 

But other things that make GRRM a bad writer? The lack of male/male rape in the detail and consistency that we have the constant raping of women/girls. He might do 'wink, wink' hints of a male character 'likes boys' but that's it. The Night's Watch chapters should be filled with mentions of rape. First of all not every castle has a Mole's Town attached to it. Second, most of the guys there are criminals. Where is the rape on the battle field? When your 'blood is up' there won't always be a woman handy.

The lack of pandemics or illnesses. This is still a world of poor hygiene, sometimes food shortages or lack of variety and poor medicine. Castles are often so big they might as well be little towns. And then there is King's Landing.

TBF to Martin, the whole idea of M/M rape being seriously  talked about (especially in war) long postdates the 1990’s.  Back then, and to great extent today, it was just a source of banter.  For some time, it was hard to get NGO’s even to take the issue seriously as a war crime.

There are pandemics in the books.  Greyscale, the Pale Mare, and the pestilence in Daeron the Good’s reign.

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7 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, so a more satisfying story is to have Petry come out on top, after all of the trouble and chaos he's caused in this series?

Why would George's ending have be satisfactory for every character? Why would it have to satisfactory towards anyone? You believe in a happy ending without any freckles? If George wants to be realistic, I think portraying someone who ultimately survives solely because he always choose the right side (but had been an envious leech all the time) is a pretty good imitation of reality.

 

9 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm not so sure about that. As others have said, he shifted his focus towards Sansa, and maybe even before he knew about the Red Wedding. The fact that he says nothing about Cat's death in AFFC could serve as further proof of that.

Brotha, no offense but how do you know what's on his mind? Why couldn't he get Sansa to show his own loyalty towards the rebelling Stark faction? I know, meanwhile he had Jeyne Poole trained to be Arya, but the man is the embodiment of genius, it'd be foolish for him to place all he has on 1 number. He would have to be lucky, simply put.

And then, why do you think different people should act the same in given situations? We are all different, in different situation, all the time. He may have cried for hours alone in his room and we just don't know that. Happens all the time in this story. We have freakin POVs that are still able to hold back certain secrets from us, despite being POVs. Why do you think we should know anything about Petyr's reaction when we didn't even have a POV any close to him. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a single person Petyr would be so close with he'd share whatever actually personal. Sansa is but a child, and it is more than enough for her to understand that Petyr supposedly helps her because he had feelings for her mother. He doesn't have to lash out about his feelings to know they are there, and it'd be quite dumb of him, considering he's been acting in his play for years without breaking character once.

The only person who may have known more than others may be Varys, for he is spying on him.

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24 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Why would George's ending have be satisfactory for every character? Why would it have to satisfactory towards anyone? You believe in a happy ending without any freckles? If George wants to be realistic, I think portraying someone who ultimately survives solely because he always choose the right side (but had been an envious leech all the time) is a pretty good imitation of reality.

 

Brotha, no offense but how do you know what's on his mind? Why couldn't he get Sansa to show his own loyalty towards the rebelling Stark faction? I know, meanwhile he had Jeyne Poole trained to be Arya, but the man is the embodiment of genius, it'd be foolish for him to place all he has on 1 number. He would have to be lucky, simply put.

And then, why do you think different people should act the same in given situations? We are all different, in different situation, all the time. He may have cried for hours alone in his room and we just don't know that. Happens all the time in this story. We have freakin POVs that are still able to hold back certain secrets from us, despite being POVs. Why do you think we should know anything about Petyr's reaction when we didn't even have a POV any close to him. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a single person Petyr would be so close with he'd share whatever actually personal. Sansa is but a child, and it is more than enough for her to understand that Petyr supposedly helps her because he had feelings for her mother. He doesn't have to lash out about his feelings to know they are there, and it'd be quite dumb of him, considering he's been acting in his play for years without breaking character once.

The only person who may have known more than others may be Varys, for he is spying on him.

I’ve always thought LF wanted both Catelyn and Sansa in his bed.

He’s the creepy nice guy.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

TBF to Martin, the whole idea of M/M rape being seriously  talked about (especially in war) long postdates the 1990’s.  Back then, and to great extent today, it was just a source of banter.  For some time, it was hard to get NGO’s even to take the issue seriously as a war crime.

There are pandemics in the books.  Greyscale, the Pale Mare, and the pestilence in Daeron the Good’s reign.

With regard to M/M rape, the most likely venue for that would be the Nights Watch, and he has set them up as essentially good guys, heroic even.  Something akin to a brotherhood or monastic order dedicated to a higher purpose.  How realistic this is is another matter, but it's George's story, so I'll go along with it.

In any case, even with condemned prisoners, having a purpose instead of being warehoused would probably improve things.  And to be honest, I don't think GRRM really wants to go there.  

As for disease, filth, and the like, you can have too much realism.  And it's interesting to note, that while noble women dying in childbirth seems to happen somewhat, there is little mention of infant or child mortality, quite high in this type of setting.  Even a family like the Starks would have had one or two kids die young, most likely.

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19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I guess we’re supposed to assume she was essentially LF2, overtly helping but meantime surreptitiously arranging the deck chairs for their sinking ship while she rises…which ultimately she did. I don’t really remember it like that but my memories of the last couple seasons are patchy. I disagree with the most oft-cited specific criticism of D&D, ie Dany ‘suddenly’ going MQ when she had literally been talking about burning cities and massacres almost since she first got power, but I wholeheartedly agree with the macro complaints about everything being rushed AF and all the many manifestations of that (including Dany and topically Sansa evolving from naive selfish teen to Mentat kind of overnight…again the 5 year gap thing arises) once they got off GM’s material. 
 

Tangeant: but that said I really disagree with the general principal that they can’t write. Some of the very best scenes were their own; Tywin’s introduction has a definite case as maybe the best written scene in the entire series, not a wasted word, and it’s not alone. 
 

Having heard they rushed the end of the series mainly because they were tired of it kills me. It might be them taking the brunt of the blame for a whole bunch of people who were getting restless, not sure, but that’s…ugh. 

It's not the sack and burning of Kings Landing I object to, thematically.  In fact, I think that viewed on its own, it's quite an impressive piece of work.  And, I could see Daenerys ordering it, for it was well within the norms of medieval warfare,

What I object to enormously, is the subsequent depiction of Daenerys as Nazi leader, a gross misrepresentation of her character in either books or show, with the offensive twist that the Nazis are people of colour.  Backed up by their dreadful misuse of Niemoller's prose poem "First They Came."

 

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