MCU: KEVIN's world

[Rhom]

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I'm not watching, but I have to say that this all sounds like the biggest pile of shite ever

@BigFatCoward eh... from the outside it might, but even while it may not have "stuck the landing" or might have been a bit out of tone for the show as a hole; it was at least entertaining to see Marvel poke fun at itself.

As I said in the thread though, the real question is whether the MCU will take its own advice moving forward.  If they don't and we know they have acknowledged those issues publicly, does that fuel more frustration?  

[Corvinus85]

Perfect thread title.

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

As I said in the thread though, the real question is whether the MCU will take its own advice moving forward.  If they don't and we know they have acknowledged those issues publicly, does that fuel more frustration?  

The thing about big flashy battles at the end of movies is something I think they have always been aware of, there has been occasions where they have broken from that formula and it has worked. Civil War's fight between Cap and Iron Man was much more low key and effective, and also the dance off in GotG was amusing. Any yet that same problem exists in almost every other Marvel movie and tv show. Maybe audience expectation means you pretty much HAVE to do 'splosions in everything.

Either way I think the 4th wall break in She-Hulk is actually pretty emblematic of the whole approach Marvel has. In isolation, that scene was fun and creative and a bit different.. but it was set in a very formulaic and safe series that wasn't pushing any boundaries at all. In the same way that many of their other shows and movies hint at adventurousness, but wind but straight back at the safest, boring formulaic conclusion.. like Wandavision. I just think the risk adversity and incentives at Disney mean its really hard to make stuff that really pushes it. Andor seems to be bucking the trend by being actually good, but we'll see.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I don't know what you guys are talking about but I'm going to see the She-Hulk finale today. 

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

The thing about big flashy battles at the end of movies is something I think they have always been aware of, there has been occasions where they have broken from that formula and it has worked. Civil War's fight between Cap and Iron Man was much more low key and effective, and also the dance off in GotG was amusing. Any yet that same problem exists in almost every other Marvel movie and tv show. Maybe audience expectation means you pretty much HAVE to do 'splosions in everything.

Either way I think the 4th wall break in She-Hulk is actually pretty emblematic of the whole approach Marvel has. In isolation, that scene was fun and creative and a bit different.. but it was set in a very formulaic and safe series that wasn't pushing any boundaries at all. In the same way that many of their other shows and movies hint at adventurousness, but wind but straight back at the safest, boring formulaic conclusion.. like Wandavision. I just think the risk adversity and incentives at Disney mean its really hard to make stuff that really pushes it. Andor seems to be bucking the trend by being actually good, but we'll see.

I think Shang Chi is the perfect example of the problem.  Nice actiony Kung Fu movie with a story of the conflict of a son and father.

Then out of nowhere there are giant dragons and an army of demons?!!!?  A secret clan of ninjas to fight off said ninjas?!!!!?

That movie could have been nice if the conclusion had been between Father/Son directly.

Even the WandaVision you mention had one of the best “conflict resolution” scenes in the Ship of Thesus discussion between the visions.  But then they throw in the SWORD guys and Wanda’s witch slugfest while also shoe horning in a character for The Marvels.

Then on the other end of the Spectrum is Loki with an entire episode that is just monologue.

So now we know they know… will we get more Shang Chi?  Or more Loki?

[mormont]

46 minutes ago, Rhom said:

So now we know they know… will we get more Shang Chi?  Or more Loki

Both, of course.

The clear strategy for Phase 4 is diversity. Not just in terms of the leads but in terms of style. The films have been safer, but the message overall is, we think we can make as many different kinds of story work on screen as we do on the page. They don’t do the experimental stuff in The Avengers comics, and so don’t expect it in The Avengers films either, but as She-hulk shows! they’re willing to try it. 

Feige is smart. He knows he can have his cake and eat it too. 

[Heartofice]

It’s diversity up to a point though. It’s still following the house rules, so everyone has the same quippy dialogue, the structure of everything follows the same patterns and it mostly looks very similar visually.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

It’s diversity up to a point though. It’s still following the house rules, so everyone has the same quippy dialogue, the structure of everything follows the same patterns and it mostly looks very similar visually.

Which...is also 100% what the comics do. That's the Marvel brand. There are occasional special exceptions that are very rare but even they fall in line. 

[sifth]

47 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Which...is also 100% what the comics do. That's the Marvel brand. There are occasional special exceptions that are very rare but even they fall in line. 

I mean if they ever had the balls to make a rated R Punisher movie, that would be different. However we know they don't have the balls to get out of their PG-13, quippy dialogue, comfort zone.

I often hear people say, Deadpool 3 will change everything. However, I'll believe that when I see the film and not a second before.

[JGP]

If I was Feige having to navigate the Disney Board's trepidation I'd advocate spinning off another distribution company for the more adult content. 

Marvel --> Epic.  

[DaveSumm]

I mean, they did already do that; they farmed it out to Netflix. They made an R rated MCU Punisher.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I mean, they did already do that; they farmed it out to Netflix. They made an R rated MCU Punisher.

Is he part of the MCU? I'm a little confused if they're counting the Netflix characters as real or part of the multiverse.

[JGP]

@DaveSumm War Zone and Iron Man came out the same year, and they didn't answer to Disney as a parent company at that point iirc. That was more Marvel Entertainment finding it's legs, I think. The Netflix licensing you may have a point on, but it's moot now.

 

[DaveSumm]

28 minutes ago, sifth said:

Is he part of the MCU? I'm a little confused if they're counting the Netflix characters as real or part of the multiverse.

Well I personally don’t see the argument that they aren’t. Marvel created them, said they were part of the MCU, that was never countermanded, and Daredevil just met the Hulk. It’s true that the D+ shows have a more cohesive relationship with the movies, but I don’t see that as an argument to decanonise anything. 

I think the movies just set such a high bar for how integrated things need to be to qualify as ‘canon’ that people started asking if the Netflix shows were canon. But they always were, they don’t contradict anything in the movies, (in fact they tie in to them in ways that, by comic standards, make them unquestionably canon), and they’re also mostly really good. Never understood the need to jettison them. I’d say all of DD, all of JJ, LC1 and Defenders are all better seasons than anything D+ has managed so far.

[Heartofice]

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/she-hulk-finale-tatiana-maslany-matt-murdock-toxic-fans-breaking-fourth-wall-1235404245/amp/

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In addition to breaking the fourth wall, the finale tackles some of the exact same trolling comments that Marvel fans have been making. How did it feel to watch that happen as the show aired, knowing how the finale would turn out?

Tatiana Maslany: Jessica Gao is a genius and knows about the culture we’re living in and her position in it when she’s writing these stories about a woman superhero. She knows what that response is going to be. As a cast, it was delightful sending each other these troll responses, like “Oh my god, give them a week and then they’re going to literally see this pop up verbatim in the show and become the villains of the show.” It was thrilling. 

Were you expecting to face the trolls when you signed on for the show?

Reading the script, it was so true. There’s so much resistance to a woman just existing in that space of superheroes. There’s always going to be that. I sort of anticipated it. It’s why I also feel it’s important. There’s such an entitlement to space held by certain people, and to even exist as She-Hulk is like a fuck-you, and I love that. 

It feels like the entire show and the finale was created to fight back against an imaginary enemy so that they can strawman anyone criticising them. 
 

Gao seems to be living under the assumption that there are a mass of male fans who are furious about the existence of female superheroes.. which is mostly entirely a figment of her imagination. Not to say there are some idiots out there, but female superheroes are pretty popular and there isn’t much complaint about someone like Black Widow, a character that was well done. 
 

The lesson there is just be better at writing and people will like what you are doing. 
 

If She-Hulk was a good show, and didn’t have this weird chip on its shoulder I’m pretty sure it’s would be well supported by ‘trolls’. 

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Well I personally don’t see the argument that they aren’t. Marvel created them, said they were part of the MCU, that was never countermanded, and Daredevil just met the Hulk. It’s true that the D+ shows have a more cohesive relationship with the movies, but I don’t see that as an argument to decanonise anything. 

I think the movies just set such a high bar for how integrated things need to be to qualify as ‘canon’ that people started asking if the Netflix shows were canon. But they always were, they don’t contradict anything in the movies, (in fact they tie in to them in ways that, by comic standards, make them unquestionably canon), and they’re also mostly really good. Never understood the need to jettison them. I’d say all of DD, all of JJ, LC1 and Defenders are all better seasons than anything D+ has managed so far.

To be honest, I get the feeling they're just cheery picking what worked well with the Netflix shows and adding them into the MCU. Just my own personal theory however. I don't even want to get started about Agents of Shield and Inhumans and if they count or not, because that's a whole other can of worms.

[sifth]

41 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/she-hulk-finale-tatiana-maslany-matt-murdock-toxic-fans-breaking-fourth-wall-1235404245/amp/

It feels like the entire show and the finale was created to fight back against an imaginary enemy so that they can strawman anyone criticising them. 
 

Gao seems to be living under the assumption that there are a mass of male fans who are furious about the existence of female superheroes.. which is mostly entirely a figment of her imagination. Not to say there are some idiots out there, but female superheroes are pretty popular and there isn’t much complaint about someone like Black Widow, a character that was well done. 
 

The lesson there is just be better at writing and people will like what you are doing. 
 

If She-Hulk was a good show, and didn’t have this weird chip on its shoulder I’m pretty sure it’s would be well supported by ‘trolls’. 

I know of quite a few people in the hate mob and artificially generated hate culture who were making all sorts of videos, preparing to hate House of the Dragon before it came out and are now eating their words, because the show is actually good. People like the Critical Drinker have even admitted to being wrong about the show, despite making hate videos for it during the spring and summer.

Just make a good show and prove the haters wrong indeed. Don't make a show just to attack people, who criticize your work.

[RumHam]

36 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Well I personally don’t see the argument that they aren’t. Marvel created them, said they were part of the MCU, that was never countermanded, and Daredevil just met the Hulk. It’s true that the D+ shows have a more cohesive relationship with the movies, but I don’t see that as an argument to decanonise anything. 

I think the movies just set such a high bar for how integrated things need to be to qualify as ‘canon’ that people started asking if the Netflix shows were canon. But they always were, they don’t contradict anything in the movies, (in fact they tie in to them in ways that, by comic standards, make them unquestionably canon), and they’re also mostly really good. Never understood the need to jettison them. I’d say all of DD, all of JJ, LC1 and Defenders are all better seasons than anything D+ has managed so far.

I understand the desire to jettison Iron First. Though it was just reinventing it self at the end there and could have become good. 

I think it's hard to argue Agents of Shield is in the main MCU timeline, but yeah I can't think of anything from the Netflix ones that sticks out. If they're going to be alternate timelines it'll just be because they want to do something different that what the Neflix shows established. 

[mormont]

There are three R rated Punisher movies, and two series of Netflix Punisher, plus he featured heavily in DD. I understand that these aren't MCU movies, but the argument that Marvel don't have the 'balls' to make one is pretty silly. What they don't have is a desire to include R rated material in the mainstream MCU, probably because they (rightly) conclude the market for that isn't large enough.

Much as I enjoyed the take Netflix had on the Punisher himself, it can't be denied that the series was pretty dour and bleak. It also, in common with most Punisher media adaptations, veered away from putting him in a costume or embracing any superhero trappings, which with a protagonist like Frank who has no powers or other superhero stuff going on means you're just making another grim and gritty action franchise, and there's no shortage of those on the market already. More successful ones. Trying to crowbar that into the MCU doesn't really serve any significant market segment.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

There are three R rated Punisher movies, and two series of Netflix Punisher, plus he featured heavily in DD. I understand that these aren't MCU movies, but the argument that Marvel don't have the 'balls' to make one is pretty silly. What they don't have is a desire to include R rated material in the mainstream MCU, probably because they (rightly) conclude the market for that isn't large enough.

 

The fact that we have over 20 MCU films and not one of them is R seems to work against your theory. Heck it need not be the Punisher who gets the R rating, that changes the formula. For example the up coming Blade film could easily be made into an R rated movie. Will it be however..........probably not, because in the MCU Blade will need to be a fun for the family type character.