Tully Madness

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know; I think that this is a legitimate topic

The Tullys, as a whole, are not genetically predisposed to madness. But the Lords of Harrenhal are.

Seriously.

Look at the list of people who have either ruled Harrenhal, lived in Harrenhal or have directly managed the affairs of Harrenhal as resident shotcaller. Almost all of them have had some serious issues.

I personally think that the combination of Balerion's dragonfire and the nature of the stone that Harrenhal is built with (which is said to incorporate human blood and magic) created something almost radioactive that really fucks up people's minds and bodies. 

But that's another subject. The generation of Tullys that we are most familiar with -- Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure -- are descended from the Whents, the Lords of Harrenhal, by way of their mother, Minisa Whent.

(The Whents have a history of infertility and post-partum mortality for both mothers and infants...tansy tea or not, this is something that Hoster Tully's wife, Minisa of House Whent, struggled with and it's no coincidence that her daughter Lysa Tully also struggled with it)

The Whents came to be Lords of Harrenhal because they were next of kin to the Lothstons who were Lords of Harrenhal before them. The last Lothston of Harrenhal, Lady Danelle, was definitely insane/mad. In most circumstances, I would not believe the stories told about but, in this case, I fully believe the stories about Danelle Lothston to be true. Lady Danelle appears to have been a skinchanger and the psychic gene she carried certainly made it's way to the current generation of Starks by way of their mother, Catelyn Tully

The fact that all five children of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully are confirmed skinchangers (despite their varying phenotypes) with one of them being a greenseer (which is a huge deal statistically) means that they had to have gotten the psychic gene from both their mother and their father. Not only that but the combination of those Stark and Tully genes had to make for quite the cocktail in order to produce a greenseer...and a powerful one at that.

So, given Catelyn's depression and the instability of both Lysa and Robert, it is not unfair or inaccurate to say that the Stark children may be carrying genes that predispose them to mental illness.

For all the threads about Arya, it's also a fair enough thing to say that Arya is having some serious mental health issues. She's not crazy or evil...but your girl is CLEARLY struggling. Sansa has had a couple of very questionable dissociative moments. Bran frequently experiences bouts of depression. And Rickon was - in fact - showing signs of being very unmanageable, even dangerous, at a young age; not entirely unlike his Arryn cousin

(In the case of the Starks, it could be a case of being psychically bonded with direwolves and having said bond either disrupted or overly-magnified at too young of an age.)

Whatever it may be, I know handful of people in the fandom (the usual suspects...we all know who they are) will use this as a way to paint the Starks as evil or unworthy or broken**

But it would be very dishonest to say that nothing is wrong with these kids.

The Starks have endured things that adults three times their age had never experienced. Most people on this forum don't even come close to experiencing the sheer trauma and horror they've experienced. And adverse childhood experiences can and do alter brain chemistry and bring on mood disorders (i.e. bipolar disorder, depression) and personality disorders (i.e. borderline, dissociative, antisocial)

 

**And let me say this. People who suffer from or struggle with mental illness are not evil or worthless. Something is wrong with their brain, just like how someone diabetic has something wrong with their pancreas. We have to change this narrative immediately. It's not funny, it's not cool and it's not productive. Please stop.

Actually, considering all the horror and trauma they have been put through, it's a wonder they are no worse off than they actually are.  Arya is the worst off, but even she functions quite normally the vast majority of the time and still has a functioning moral compass.  She's quite a bit more violent than I would prefer a child her age to be, but it goes with the territory I suppose.

The rest seem to be OK.  Sansa had the habit of ignoring unpleasant facts, but seems to have gotten over it.  She has trust issues, but that might be just as well.  She certainly realizes that Littlefinger has two faces and that one of them is not her friend.  And Bran and Rickon don't seem any worse than other kids their age. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Nevets

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know; I think that this is a legitimate topic

The Tullys, as a whole, are not genetically predisposed to madness. But the Lords of Harrenhal are.

Seriously.

Look at the list of people who have either ruled Harrenhal, lived in Harrenhal or have directly managed the affairs of Harrenhal as resident shotcaller. Almost all of them have had some serious issues.

I personally think that the combination of Balerion's dragonfire and the nature of the stone that Harrenhal is built with (which is said to incorporate human blood and magic) created something almost radioactive that really fucks up people's minds and bodies. 

But that's another subject. The generation of Tullys that we are most familiar with -- Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure -- are descended from the Whents, the Lords of Harrenhal, by way of their mother, Minisa Whent.

(The Whents have a history of infertility and post-partum mortality for both mothers and infants...tansy tea or not, this is something that Hoster Tully's wife, Minisa of House Whent, struggled with and it's no coincidence that her daughter Lysa Tully also struggled with it)

The Whents came to be Lords of Harrenhal because they were next of kin to the Lothstons who were Lords of Harrenhal before them. The last Lothston of Harrenhal, Lady Danelle, was definitely insane/mad. In most circumstances, I would not believe the stories told about but, in this case, I fully believe the stories about Danelle Lothston to be true. Lady Danelle appears to have been a skinchanger and the psychic gene she carried certainly made it's way to the current generation of Starks by way of their mother, Catelyn Tully

The fact that all five children of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully are confirmed skinchangers (despite their varying phenotypes) with one of them being a greenseer (which is a huge deal statistically) means that they had to have gotten the psychic gene from both their mother and their father. Not only that but the combination of those Stark and Tully genes had to make for quite the cocktail in order to produce a greenseer...and a powerful one at that.

So, given Catelyn's depression and the instability of both Lysa and Robert, it is not unfair or inaccurate to say that the Stark children may be carrying genes that predispose them to mental illness.

For all the threads about Arya, it's also a fair enough thing to say that Arya is having some serious mental health issues. She's not crazy or evil...but your girl is CLEARLY struggling. Sansa has had a couple of very questionable dissociative moments. Bran frequently experiences bouts of depression. And Rickon was - in fact - showing signs of being very unmanageable, even dangerous, at a young age; not entirely unlike his Arryn cousin

(In the case of the Starks, it could be a case of being psychically bonded with direwolves and having said bond either disrupted or overly-magnified at too young of an age.)

Whatever it may be, I know handful of people in the fandom (the usual suspects...we all know who they are) will use this as a way to paint the Starks as evil or unworthy or broken**

But it would be very dishonest to say that nothing is wrong with these kids.

The Starks have endured things that adults three times their age had never experienced. Most people on this forum don't even come close to experiencing the sheer trauma and horror they've experienced. And adverse childhood experiences can and do alter brain chemistry and bring on mood disorders (i.e. bipolar disorder, depression) and personality disorders (i.e. borderline, dissociative, antisocial)

 

**And let me say this. People who suffer from or struggle with mental illness are not evil or worthless. Something is wrong with their brain, just like how someone diabetic has something wrong with their pancreas. We have to change this narrative immediately. It's not funny, it's not cool and it's not productive. Please stop.

Very well said.  People push back heavily against the Stark children being “mad” (as with Dany) because “mad” is used as a synonym for “evil”.

It’s clear they’re all traumatised in various ways, and trauma is the normal reaction to what they have been through.

[Hugorfonics]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that this is a legitimate topic

I agree. And great post! Picking up on Catelyn's depression like that, this is the first I've heard that mentioned but it clicked like it was it tailormade. Bran as well, I think that's an on point diagnosis.

Also totally agree about the shaming. Tyrion in adwd is slipping off his rocker as Dany is throughout the story, both are fundamentally good people who do good in the world, like Cat and her kids. In fact I think the internal struggle of mental illness is a great story device as well.

 

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Actually, considering all the horror and trauma they have been put through, it's a wonder they are no worse off than they actually are.  Arya is the worst off, but even she functions quite normally the vast majority of the time and still has a functioning moral compass.  She's quite a bit more violent than I would prefer a child her age to be, but it goes with the territory I suppose.

The rest seem to be OK.  Sansa had the habit of ignoring unpleasant facts, but seems to have gotten over it.  She has trust issues, but that might be just as well.  She certainly realizes that Littlefinger has two faces and that one of them is not her friend.  And Bran and Rickon don't seem any worse than other kids their age. 

Arya shows troubling signs almost immediately.

Quote

Sometimes she thought about swimming the river, but the Blackwater Rush was wide and deep, and everyone agreed that its currents were wicked and treacherous. She had no coin to pay a ferryman or take passage on a ship.

Her lord father had taught her never to steal, but it was growing harder to remember why.

The Kindly Man calls her out on it too, she's not Batman. She can't just do whatever the hell she wants like there are no rules in society. Can this be rationalized and understood, sure, but she throws up red flags.

Sansa has not gotten over reimagining her life, and I disagree with the assessment that she realizes LF has two faces. She should but she didn't, she convinces herself (in contrast with her sister who denies an establishment) that she's in the right place.

Quote

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

(I should say though, that this is remarkably Eddard like, whos genes she certainly has but that's not Tully)

Bran is a cannibal who treats his stableboy like a playstation, Rickon doesn't really have screen time but when he did he was bouncing off the walls.

Again, to reiterate, I love the Stark kids and think they're all good folk but seriously and fundamentally, struggling. And then compounded with the insanity of Lysa and frankly Lord Robert and the Bat Lady of Harrenhal I do think this thread has some legs.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hugorfonics

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree. And great post! Picking up on Catelyn's depression like that, this is the first I've heard that mentioned but it clicked like it was it tailormade. Bran as well, I think that's an on point diagnosis.

Also totally agree about the shaming. Tyrion in adwd is slipping off his rocker as Dany is throughout the story, both are fundamentally good people who do good in the world, like Cat and her kids. In fact I think the internal struggle of mental illness is a great story device as well.

 

Arya shows troubling signs almost immediately.

The Kindly Man calls her out on it too, she's not Batman. She can't just do whatever the hell she wants like there are no rules in society. Can this be rationalized and understood, sure, but she throws up red flags.

Sansa has not gotten over reimagining her life, and I disagree with the assessment that she realizes LF has two faces. She should but she didn't, she convinces herself (in contrast with her sister who denies an establishment) that she's in the right place.

(I should say though, that this is remarkably Eddard like, whos genes she certainly has but that's not Tully)

Bran is a cannibal who treats his stableboy like a playstation, Rickon doesn't really have screen time but when he did he was bouncing off the walls.

Again, to reiterate, I love the Stark kids and think they're all good folk but seriously and fundamentally, struggling. And then compounded with the insanity of Lysa and frankly Lord Robert and the Bat Lady of Harrenhal I do think this thread has some legs.

Arya throws up red flags, but mostly after her experiences in the Riverlands.  And the comment about finding it harder to remember why not to steal is in KL, where she is slowly starving to death.  Thinking about stealing seems logical to me, especially for a 9 year old.  I'm surprised it didn't come earlier.

Prior to their abandonment and being left to their own devices, the Stark children seem pretty ordinary to me.  Arya is pretty violent with Joffrey, but for a 9 year old with a strong sense of right and wrong, that's not that surprising.  And even their post-trauma experiences don't seem that unusual.  This thread may have legs, but I don't they aren't very long.  Under ordinary circumstances, and even somewhat stressful ones, everybody seems pretty normal.  Lysa excepted, and Robert shows signs of arrested development, but that's all.  The other Tullys seem pretty solid as well.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:21 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Of Cat’s children, yes, it is Arya who seems to have succumbed to the mental illness. The inherited tendency and the shock of seeing Ned’s execution pushed Arya over the edge. Sansa and the others are in stressful conditions but as long as they are not pushed beyond their coping abilities they may escape the illness.  Arya was pushed beyond her ability to cope and lost it. 

Hmmm

I think you're forgetting about Bran.

Bran has been so horribly traumatized, he can't even really remember what happened when, by all accounts, there's no reason for him to have forgotten. And if he can't really remember, how can he understand and accept it? I think Bran is in a more dangerous/unhealthy position than Arya at this point.

The Faceless Men is not a organization that Arya (or really any child) has any business being a part of but at least they are an organization; they give Arya structure and boundaries and a sense of purpose. Bran is under Bloodraven's thumb and I'm not sure that Bloodraven is up to any good. Personally, I'm beginning to believe that Bloodraven is impersonating the real Three-Eyed-Crow but that's a completely different can of worms.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:08 PM, Nevets said:

Lysa excepted, and Robert shows signs of arrested development, but that's all.  The other Tullys seem pretty solid as well.

That's the thing. The other Tullys that we know about (Hoster, Brynden, Grover, Elmo, Celia, etc.) have no direct blood relation with the Lords of Harrenhal.

On 7/21/2023 at 9:43 AM, Hugorfonics said:

And then compounded with the insanity of Lysa and frankly Lord Robert and the Bat Lady of Harrenhal I do think this thread has some legs.

What's more is that even the smallfolk seem to understand this connection.

Remember that passage about Sansa being a wolf that sprouted bat wings and flying away? They were basically comparing Sansa to Danelle Lothston...and, in really indirect way, Daenerys.

[Damsel in Distress]

Arya's illness has already begun and the symptoms, if you can call murdering symptoms, has too.  Though Jon is not Tully his Targaryen side make him as vulnerable as the other male Targaryens. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Arya's illness has already begun and the symptoms, if you can call murdering symptoms, has too.  Though Jon is not Tully his Targaryen side make him as vulnerable as the other male Targaryens. 

You are adorable, you actually believe that

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/24/2023 at 3:38 PM, BlackLightning said:

Hmmm

I think you're forgetting about Bran.

Bran has been so horribly traumatized, he can't even really remember what happened when, by all accounts, there's no reason for him to have forgotten. And if he can't really remember, how can he understand and accept it? I think Bran is in a more dangerous/unhealthy position than Arya at this point.

The Faceless Men is not a organization that Arya (or really any child) has any business being a part of but at least they are an organization; they give Arya structure and boundaries and a sense of purpose. Bran is under Bloodraven's thumb and I'm not sure that Bloodraven is up to any good. Personally, I'm beginning to believe that Bloodraven is impersonating the real Three-Eyed-Crow but that's a completely different can of worms.

Bran is a 9 year old kid, who like all 9 year old kids can be petulant and angry.  A particular sore spot for Bran is being called a cripple.  For most kids this is understandable, however, the problem with Bran is his immense telepathic power.  His power makes his petulance and anger  very problematic.  

I think we see an example of this in this exchange with Tyrion.

Quote

"I have a gift for you," the dwarf said to Bran.  "Do you like to ride, boy?"

Maester Luwin came forward.  "My lord, the child has lost the use of his legs.  He cannot sit a horse.

"Nonsense," said Lannister.  "With the right horse and the right saddle, even a cripple can ride"

The word was a knife through Bran's heart.  He felt tears come unbidden to his eyes.  "I'm not a cripple!"

Quote

Robb Stark seemed puzzled.  "Is this some trap, Lannister?  What's Bran to you?  Why should you want to help him?

"Your brother Jon asked it of me.  And I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things."  Tyrion Lannister placed a hand over his heart and grinned.

The door to the yard flew open.  Sunlight came streaming across the hall as Rickon burst in, breathless.  The direwolves were with him.  The boy stopped by the door, wide-eyed, but the wolves came on.  Their eyes found Lannister, or perhaps they caught his scent.  Summer began to growl first.

So despite the fact that it was Robb who was the most openly hostile to Tyrion, and Rickon who seems to have the least control and hold over his direwolf, it's Summer who first reacts hostiley towards Tyrion.  I think it's because that they enter the hall right after Tyrion again calls Bran a cripple.  A word which Bran hates.  So even though Tyrion is attempting to help Bran at that moment, Bran's anger at being called a cripple transfers to Summer who picks up on Bran's unbidden anger.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[SaffronLady]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Bran is a 9 year old kid, who like all 9 year old kids can be petulant and angry.  A particular sore spot for Bran is being called a cripple.  For most kids this is understandable, however, the problem with Bran is his immense telepathic power.  His power makes his petulance and anger very problematic.  

In a way that does not need him to be insane, rather fortunately.

[Darth Sidious]

On 7/24/2023 at 4:38 PM, BlackLightning said:

Hmmm

I think you're forgetting about Bran.

Bran has been so horribly traumatized, he can't even really remember what happened when, by all accounts, there's no reason for him to have forgotten. And if he can't really remember, how can he understand and accept it? I think Bran is in a more dangerous/unhealthy position than Arya at this point.

The Faceless Men is not a organization that Arya (or really any child) has any business being a part of but at least they are an organization; they give Arya structure and boundaries and a sense of purpose. Bran is under Bloodraven's thumb and I'm not sure that Bloodraven is up to any good. Personally, I'm beginning to believe that Bloodraven is impersonating the real Three-Eyed-Crow but that's a completely different can of worms.

Bran and Arya have different temperaments. Arya is just the type to react badly rather than calmly. Arya is already crazy. Bran might not succumb to the Tully madness. Arya already has snapped. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

6 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Bran and Arya have different temperaments. Arya is just the type to react badly rather than calmly. Arya is already crazy. Bran might not succumb to the Tully madness. Arya already has snapped. 

How can Bran react to something that doesn’t exist?

[BlackLightning]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:15 AM, Darth Sidious said:

Bran and Arya have different temperaments. Arya is just the type to react badly rather than calmly. Arya is already crazy. Bran might not succumb to the Tully madness. Arya already has snapped. 

I think you have the definition of calmly mixed up with that of quietly.

There have been multiple cases of Bran reacting badly to stuff...it's just that Bran is a lot quieter than Arya. He takes after Catelyn; both of them are prone to severe depression. What with her rages, Arya has more in common with Lysa, Robert and Rickon.

Bran is more like ice and Arya like fire.

[the trees have eyes]

Arya is impulsive and has a hot temper.  This really shouldn't be confused with mental illness.  What provokes her temper is injustice, whether a sister being snooty or fibbing, or soldiers torturing and murdering smallfolk.  That's hardly a red flag for mental illness.  She's been brutalised and left to make her own way in a violent world while still a child but all her choices and actions are easy enough to follow rationally whether we approve of all of them or not.

[Bowen 747]

On 1/15/2023 at 8:47 PM, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

That's a damning evidence.  Lysa, Cat, and then Arya all going insane.  Three in two generations.  I would keep an eye on sweet Robin Arryn too.  It matters little if the father is Bealish or Arryn.  He inherited the defect from Lysa. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

11 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

That's a damning evidence.  Lysa, Cat, and then Arya all going insane.  Three in two generations.  I would keep an eye on sweet Robin Arryn too.  It matters little if the father is Bealish or Arryn.  He inherited the defect from Lysa. 

Bowen 747, Sydney Mae, Jaime Cooper, Darth Sidious, Frey Family Reunion, Damsel in Distress……

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Lord Domeric Bolton said:

Bowen 747, Sydney Mae, Jaime Cooper, Darth Sidious, Frey Family Reunion, Damsel in Distress……

Moiraine Sedai, Victor Newman, James West, The Commentator, Shierak Qiya, H Wadsworth Longfellow, Rondo, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Rosetta Stone, Roswell, Aline de Gavrillac, Lord of the Crossing, James Fenimore Cooper XXII, Wisconsin, Kierrria, The Lord of the Crossing, Here's Looking at You, Kid, Only 89 selfies today, and Targaryen Restoration, have all commented on this thread. It could be a new record for the anti-Stark club. Having said that a lot of the comments seem redundant as they are either agreeing or just repeating what another said...

[Maegor_the_Cool]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Moiraine Sedai, Victor Newman, James West, The Commentator, Shierak Qiya, H Wadsworth Longfellow, Rondo, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Rosetta Stone, Roswell, Aline de Gavrillac, Lord of the Crossing, James Fenimore Cooper XXII, Wisconsin, Kierrria, The Lord of the Crossing, Here's Looking at You, Kid, Only 89 selfies today, and Targaryen Restoration, have all commented on this thread. It could be a new record for the anti-Stark club. Having said that a lot of the comments seem redundant as they are either agreeing or just repeating what another said...

We should all make a pact not to engage in any threat that they all create. It’s the only way to get them to stop their trolling

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Lord Domeric Bolton said:

We should all make a pact not to engage in any threat that they all create. It’s the only way to get them to stop their trolling

I tried that, there was a thread where no one outside the circle responded, but they just like and quote and repeat each other's posts.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I tried that, there was a thread where no one outside the circle responded, but they just like and quote and repeat each other's posts.

That seems like….unhinged behavior.