Tully Madness

[Sydney Mae]

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

[Alester Florent]

I don't think that reacting irrationally to seeing your son murdered in front of you can be considered a sign of hereditary madness.

To the extent that killing Jinglebell even was irrational. Taking him hostage was entirely rational. Killing him was just following through - albeit unnecessarily - on that initial decision.

Edited January 16 by Adelstein

[Sydney Mae]

4 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

I don't think that reacting irrationally to seeing your son murdered in front of you can be considered a sign of hereditary madness.

To the extent that killing Jinglebell even was irrational. Taking him hostage was entirely rational. Killing him was just following through - albeit unnecessarily - on that initial decision.

The stress triggered the madness in Cat.  Ned's public execution triggered the same illness in Arya.  Something very stressful will happen to Sansa and she might break too.  Their blood make them vulnerable to madness. 

[Aebram]

Cat was a fully functional, intelligent woman. Everything she did in the story seemed admirable, up until the moment when she saw her firstborn son, as well as many friends and supporters, murdered in cold blood by their host, in a culture where violating guest right is a mortal sin. If she did a few unwise things at that time, I don't think that can be considered madness. And moments later of course, she was killed; and some time after that, she was a zombified. So we can't judge her later behavior by the standards of living humans.

Lysa was insecure and clingy, possibly as a result of some childhood incidents.  She loved Petyr, but he loved her older sister, which surely didn't do much for her self-esteem. Later, her father married her to a much older man, and she had difficulty bearing and raising a son. Lots of people have had similar experiences, and some of them have gone on to commit murders or other crimes; but that doesn't mean that they were mad.

The only thing I see in Lysa's behavior that might qualify as madness is her continuing to nurse her son, long after he was old enough to be weaned.  I have no expertise on this subject, but I did a quick Web search.  There are real-life examples of mothers who have done this; and they and their children seem to be normal and healthy in other respects.

[Craving Peaches]

This thread is honestly stupid. Edmure shows no signs of madness and the Tully line as a whole shows no history of madness. Lysa is unstable but I wouldn't classify her as mad. Catelyn only goes mad after her son is butchered in front of her, which is after her husband and two other sons (from her point of view) have died. Even if you stretch it and claim Lysa is mad as well, both instances of madness were caused by external trauma, not genetics. And even if you somehow accept that Catelyn had a 'mad gene', there's no evidence her children have inherited it.

This looks like another thread to try and bash anyone who is/could be anti-Targaryen, a bit ironic and hypocritical given that House's history with being genetically predisposed to more extensive madness, and madness which isn't caused by trauma but is innate.

Edited January 16 by Craving Peaches

[StarkTullies]

There's a sudden explosion of madness threads which are obviously joke threads, but it seems that this one is actually real?

The only family in this story famously prone to madness is the Targaryen family.  Not all Targaryens are insane, and most aren't, but this thread (and all the "Jon/Arya/Bran/Rickon/Sansa will go insane!" threads) are obviously deflecting from the possibility of Dany going insane (which I don't think she will, by the way).  Just like the "theory" about Brandon and Lyanna being Jon's parents (with no evidence at all) is created to deflect how disgusting Targaryen incest is.

Lysa was obviously unhinged and irrational.  Was it due to "Tully madness genes", or due to circumstances that her first pregnancy was secretly aborted by her supposedly loving father, she had countless more miscarriages after that, her only surviving child is in perpetual bad health, her toxic lover constantly manipulated and gaslighted her, and her jealousy over her favored-by-everybody sister?  I think circumstances are more likely.

Catelyn wasn't mad.  She had a brief moment of hysteria after her son was murdered right in front of her.  The test would be how she coped afterward, but she never had a chance to be tested because she was immediately murdered.  Then she was a rotting corpse for 3 days before being resurrected by a hollow man whose life-source was already empty after being resurrected multiple times already.  Unless we have real-life examples on how to evaluate the "sanity" of zombies (which we don't), I'm not going judge living Catelyn by her undead actions.  Living Catelyn was not mad.

I realize that Tully madness claim is just a new angle to go after the Stark children rather than the more traditional (and proof-lacking) Stark madness claim, but there is no reason whatsoever to think that any of the Stark children will go mad in life.  How Jon will react to life/death/resurrection is anybody's guess until the next book comes out, but nothing he does will be caused by "madness genes" (and he's not a Tully anyway).

Edited January 16 by StarkTullies

[SeanF]

Terms like "madness" and "insanity" are bandied around far too readily.

There is nothing to suggest that Catelyn suffers from schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, or major clinical depression.

However, Catelyn does get increasingly depressed as her life goes from bad to disastrous.  Her husband and (as far as she knows) two sons, and a daughter, have all been murdered.  Sansa is a prisoner, and then Robb is murdered in front of her. She finally snaps.  At the point that she kills Jinglebell, she is almost certainly insane in the legal sense. 

But, it's not because mental illness runs in her family.  Her psychosis is triggered as a result of all the horrible things that get done to those that she loves. 

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Terms like "madness" and "insanity" are bandied around far too readily.

Yes.

[Darth Sidious]

13 hours ago, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

I like it. That could explain Arya’s condition. 

[Raven Princling]

Are you serious? Now people think Tullys are mad? These are obviously weak attempts to take digs at the Stark children (again). 

1) Cat went mad because she saw her son and his closest allies butchered in front of her during a wedding feast which was a betrayal of a sacred tradition. This was also after, from her eyes, Sansa has been sold to Tyrion, Bran and Rickon are dead (again from her pov) and there has not been a single word of Arya. And all this after the death of her husband.

2) Lysa was never truly mad. She is unhinged and insecure, true. But she was also unhappily in love with a man who loved his sister and whose child she was forced to essentially abort (which can be a traumatic experience). She then got married to a man much older than her and bore two stillborn children (again traumatic experience). When she gives birth to a son she clings to him too tightly and then gets manipulated and gaslit by the man she loves again. Again- not madness. And not a hereditary one at that.

3) Neither Hoster, Blackfish nor Edmure displayed traits of madness. Nor are there any tales of Tullys being insane in the past. The only family that seems to have had hereditary madness are Targaryens. Get over it.

 

Edited January 16 by Raven Princling

[Angel Eyes]

50 minutes ago, Raven Princling said:

Are you serious? Now people think Tullys are mad? These are obviously weak attempts to take digs at the Stark children (again). 

1) Cat went mad because she saw her son and his closest allies butchered in front of her during a wedding feast which was a betrayal of a sacred tradition. This was also after, from her eyes, Sansa has been sold to Tyrion, Bran and Rickon are dead (again from her pov) and there has not been a single word of Arya. And all this after the death of her husband.

2) Lysa was never truly mad. She is unhinged and insecure, true. But she was also unhappily in love with a man who loved his sister and whose child she was forced to essentially abort (which can be a traumatic experience). She then got married to a man much older than her and bore two stillborn children (again traumatic experience). When she gives birth to a son she clings to him too tightly and then gets manipulated and gaslit by the man she loves again. Again- not madness. And not a hereditary one at that.

3) Neither Hoster, Blackfish nor Edmure displayed traits of madness. Nor are there any tales of Tullys being insane in the past. The only family that seems to have had hereditary madness are Targaryens. Get over it.

 

2. I think Lysa has lead poisoning but that's another topic.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Lysa was already unbalanced at the start of the main story. Catelyn lost her sanity at the end. Stress on it’s own is not enough to push people to insanity. Stress can make a person anxious, fearful, and upset. Most people exposed to stress do not become insane. A weakness or a predisposition in the person is what puts them in danger of madness. Lysa and Catelyn had it. It means the same weakness may be present in Robin, Arya, Sansa, Rick, and Bran.  

[Victor Newman]

Lysa was definitely mentally and emotionally unstable.  Cat's kids have as good of a chance as a Targaryen of going insane. 

[James West]

19 hours ago, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

Oh what a find. It's one more thing to consider when discussing the sanity of Arya and Jon.  

 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This thread is honestly stupid. Edmure shows no signs of madness and the Tully line as a whole shows no history of madness. Lysa is unstable but I wouldn't classify her as mad. Catelyn only goes mad after her son is butchered in front of her, which is after her husband and two other sons (from her point of view) have died. Even if you stretch it and claim Lysa is mad as well, both instances of madness were caused by external trauma, not genetics. And even if you somehow accept that Catelyn had a 'mad gene', there's no evidence her children have inherited it.

This looks like another thread to try and bash anyone who is/could be anti-Targaryen, a bit ironic and hypocritical given that House's history with being genetically predisposed to more extensive madness, and madness which isn't caused by trauma but is innate.

Impulsiveness and stupidity, yes, but not necessarily madness.

[The Commentator]

Cat passed this tendency for insanity to her kids. Lysa’s own son is suspect. 

[Shierak Qiya]

On 1/15/2023 at 8:47 PM, Sydney Mae said:

The Tully sisters went mad.  Catelyn Tully-Stark and Lysa Tully-Arryn were showing signs of madness and emotional fragility.  Lysa had it from her youth to her death.  Catelyn lost it at the wedding.  She cut Aegon Frey's throat and killed him.  Catelyn went mad that minute.  There is insanity in the Tully blood.  Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are half Tully.  Cat's brood inherited the gene predisposing them to insanity.  I know stress can trigger the disease.   

That Lysa is nuts is evident.  Her son is underdeveloped emotionally, socially, and intellectually too.  There could be an issue with little Lord Robert as well.  Catelyn's sanity left her during her last moments as a living person.  So yes, there are causes for concern and the presence of a gene which predisposes the Tullys to going nuts is worthy of concern that should not be ignored. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, Shierak Qiya said:

That Lysa is nuts is evident.  Her son is underdeveloped emotionally, socially, and intellectually too.  There could be an issue with little Lord Robert as well.  Catelyn's sanity left her during her last moments as a living person.  So yes, there are causes for concern and the presence of a gene which predisposes the Tullys to going nuts is worthy of concern that should not be ignored. 

Wrong.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:36 PM, Shierak Qiya said:

 So yes, there are causes for concern and the presence of a gene which predisposes the Tullys to going nuts is worthy of concern that should not be ignored. 

Enough to raise questions for sure about the Tullys.  

[Rondo]

I also wrote a convincing post on a similar subject.  I see now where Arya's genetic predisposition may have come from.