Unpopular opinion: Tyrion trying to genocide the people of the Vale is much worse than anything Cersei has done.

[boltons are sick]

I keep hearing from fans about how Cersei is awful and evil and how they can't stand her, but they often think that Tyrion is a good person.

This is probably going to be a hot take, but Tyrion trying to destroy an entire kingdom and letting the clans from the mountains freely raid and pillage across it is much worse than anything Cersei has done.

Before anyone tries to argue that he didn't intend for this, Tyrion essentially arranges for the clansmen to be given better weapons and he specifically tells them that they can have the Vale for themselves and reconquer it which inspires the clansmen to attack the Vale. Then, when he meets with Tywin and Kevan, Tyrion thinks about how his plan is going to destroy the Vale and here is the exact quote from the text:

Quote

Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given a chance.

Then, Littlefinger tells Tyrion that there are reports of clansmen coming down from the mountains and performing devastating attacks against the Vale with new weapons, but Tyrion doesn't care about that and thinks about how he has armed the clans with no remorse.

Everyone from the fans always say how Cersei is much worse than Tyrion and how Tyrion is more moral than her, but if you think about it, Tyrion's actions here claimed the lives of at least hundreds of innocent people and before anyone makes an argument that tyrion doesn't have control over what the clans do, he specifically tells them that they can reconquer the Vale with the new weapons he has given and I already provided a quote from his own POV chapters which shows that he plans for the Vale to be reduced to a "smoking wasteland".

In comparison, Cersei commits a few political murders and tortures some people, but her body count (successful or attempted) never reaches the sheer scale of what Tyrion is trying to accomplish here and she never tried to commit genocide on one of the Seven Kingdoms by inciting wildlings to attack it, pillage it and conquer it for themselves. Her giving test subjects to Qyburn claims the lives of 4 people while Tyrion's scheme has claimed the lives of much more people.

Edited February 15, 2023 by boltons are sick

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

I keep hearing from fans about how Cersei is awful and evil and how they can't stand her, but they often think that Tyrion is a good person.

This is probably going to be a hot take, but Tyrion trying to destroy an entire kingdom and letting the clans from the mountains freely raid and pillage across it is much worse than anything Cersei has done.

Before anyone tries to argue that he didn't intend for this, Tyrion essentially arranges for the clansmen to be given better weapons and he specifically tells them that they can have the Vale for themselves and reconquer it which inspires the clansmen to attack the Vale. Then, when he meets with Tywin and Kevan, Tyrion thinks about how his plan is going to destroy the Vale and here is the exact quote from the text:

Then, Littlefinger tells Tyrion that there are reports of clansmen coming down from the mountains and performing devastating attacks against the Vale with new weapons, but Tyrion doesn't care about that and thinks about how he has armed the clans with no remorse.

Everyone from the fans always say how Cersei is much worse than Tyrion and how Tyrion is more moral than her, but if you think about it, Tyrion's actions here claimed the lives of at least hundreds of innocent people and before anyone makes an argument that tyrion doesn't have control over what the clans do, he specifically tells them that they can reconquer the Vale with the new weapons he has given and I already provided a quote from his own POV chapters which shows that he plans for the Vale to be reduced to a "smoking wasteland".

In comparison, Cersei commits a few political murders and tortures some people, but her body count (successful or attempted) never reaches the sheer scale of what Tyrion is trying to accomplish here and she never tried to commit genocide on one of the Seven Kingdoms by inciting wildlings to attack it, pillage it and conquer it for themselves. Her giving test subjects to Qyburn claims the lives of 4 people while Tyrion's scheme has claimed the lives of much more people.

Cersei's and Tyrion's direct body counts are quite small.

Indirectly, they head up a murderous regime that inflicts misery upon hundreds of thousands, even if the bulk of the killing is done by their father and his soldiers.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Tyrion essentially arranges for the clansmen to be given better weapons and he specifically tells them that they can have the Vale for themselves and reconquer it which inspires the clansmen to attack the Vale.

That's not really genocide though. Otherwise, every time one country provided another's rebels with support it would be 'genocide'. He's not telling them to kill all Andals, just to reconquer land which they used to own. And some of the Vale houses they are attacking are First Men houses like them anyway.

[boltons are sick]

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's not really genocide though. Otherwise, every time one country provided another's rebels with support it would be 'genocide'. He's not telling them to kill all Andals, just to reconquer land which they used to own. And some of the Vale houses they are attacking are First Men houses like them anyway.

Ok, it's not genocide, but he definitely intends for them to kill a lot of people across the Vale. This is literally his thought:

Quote

Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given a chance.

Him thinking about how this is going to reduce the Vale to a "smoking wasteland" shows his intentions imo. "Smoking" means that there will be fires across the entire kingdom and "wasteland" means that the lands would be depopulated after the clansmen's  attacks. Just because his thoughts don't explicitly include "Oh, and many people are going to die." doesn't mean he doesn't realize that this is what is going to happen when he literally thinks that the Vale is going to be reduced to a "smoking wasteland".

 He doesn't explicitly order them to kill people, I will give you that, but he knows that if he gives them good weapons and armour and incites them to attack the Vale, this is exactly what they are going to do, and he does this to hurt Lysa Arryn as much as possible, not caring about collateral damage.

Edited February 15, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Loose Bolt]

Actually Cersei's bloodline usurpation has caused more deaths than anything that Tyrion had done. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Strange take, honestly.

The mountain clans are themselves the victims of colonialism and attempted genocide. Forced to live a meagre existence in the worst parts of a region which was violently taken away from their ancestors. Give them more weapons as far as I’m concerned.

[boltons are sick]

4 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Actually Cersei's bloodline usurpation has caused more deaths than anything that Tyrion had done. 

You can't blame a victim of marital rape for cheating on her husband who is also cheating on her and the only reason why Cersei is persecuted for the "crime" of cheating while Robert isn't is because of the sexist laws of Westerosi society.

 Also, the main instigator behind the War of the Five Kings is Littlefinger, not Cersei, so if you want to blame someone for it, blame Littlefinger.

[boltons are sick]

8 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Strange take, honestly.

The mountain clans are themselves the victims of colonialism and attempted genocide. Forced to live a meagre existence in the worst parts of a region which was violently taken away from their ancestors. Give them more weapons as far as I’m concerned.

 The thing, Tyrion isn't doing it to help the clansmen and doesn't really care about them or their history with the people of the Vale. He is just doing it to hurt Lysa Arryn for imprisoning him by using the clansmen and their resentment towards the inhabitants of the Vale of Arryn and doesn't care about the collateral damage their pillaging is going to inflict on the Vale and its people, so long as Lysa suffers in some way, which is very spiteful when you think about it.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

You can't blame a victim of marital rape for cheating on her husband who is also cheating on her and the only reason why Cersei is persecuted for the "crime" of cheating while Robert isn't is because of the sexist laws of Westerosi society.

It's not the cheating, it's the fraud. I don't care that she cheats. It was having Jaime's children and passing them off as real that caused the mess.

[boltons are sick]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not the cheating, it's the fraud. I don't care that she cheats. It was having Jaime's children and passing them off as real that caused the mess.

 If she didn't pretend that the children are Robert's, her entire family would have been executed.

 Also, that's not really the thing most people are concerned about. In the fourth book we see that Margaery might be executed simply for supposedly "cheating" on Tommen when Cersei tries to frame her. This shows that for most people in Westerosi society, the cheating itself is the problem and they think that a woman deserves to be executed for cheating on the King, which is incredibly fucked up and even if Cersei drank moon tea every time she had sex with Jaime, if someone found out that she was cheating on her husband at all, she would have been executed.

 Plus, I really doubt that Cersei even did that with any malicious intention. She just doesn't want to bear chilldren from someone like Robert (which is understandable) and instead wants to do it with someone she loves. It's not something that should be punished with death, at all.

Edited February 15, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

if someone found out that she was cheating on her husband at all, she would have been executed

No one would have suspected anything if she didn't have the children. They tipped everyone off. Cersei didn't need to have Jaime's children. She could have just had the affair, not had his children. She could have had one child with Robert and then the others with Jaime.

I really don't agree with your whole line of reasoning. Cersei didn't need to pretend or kill anyone. You can't say she was forced to do these things when she voluntarily created the situation where it was 'necessary' to do these things in the first place.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

19 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 The thing, Tyrion isn't doing it to help the clansmen and doesn't really care about them or their history with the people of the Vale. He is just doing it to hurt Lysa Arryn for imprisoning him by using the clansmen and their resentment towards the inhabitants of the Vale of Arryn and doesn't care about the collateral damage their pillaging is going to inflict on the Vale and its people, so long as Lysa suffers in some way, which is very spiteful when you think about it.

Sure, but that’s still not the worst thing Tyrion’s done, let alone worse than what Cersei has done.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No one would have suspected anything if she didn't have the children. They tipped everyone off. Cersei didn't need to have Jaime's children. She could have just had the affair, not had his children. She could have had one child with Robert and then the others with Jaime.

I really don't agree with your whole line of reasoning. Cersei didn't need to pretend or kill anyone. You can't say she was forced to do these things when she voluntarily created the situation where it was 'necessary' to do these things in the first place.

And this is a classic toxic Lannister trait. All three of the Lannister children have blood on their hands at this point because of conscientious choices they have made, and they make excuses to justify it. Their political crimes are frowned upon even by Westerosi standards. It's difficult to decide which one is worse than the other when they all lack remorse. Tyrion is chained to bitterness, Cersei is drunk with power, and Jaime is putting band-aids on his own screw-ups and calling it good. Jaime needs therapy, Tyrion needs rehab, and Cersei is kind of beyond help at this point.

[Craving Peaches]

Tyrion is not a nice person by any means. But so far I don't think he's done something on the level of Cersei murdering multiple innocent babies because they wounded her pride.

[KingStoneheart]

I get what you’re trying to say but at the end of the day it’s not that deep. Tyrion needed to get himself out of a sticky situation (like he always has to) and made some promises in offers that he believed would get him out safely. Through these promises he got a fancy escort to his father’s camp and gained respect (through “fighting”) of a whole mountain clan.

At the end of the day, Tyrion promised them weapons and gave them the means to attack the Vale and yes he had no issues doing this because he was pissed off at Lysa Arryn but so what?

Are you saying anyone that does a dodgy trade is as bad as Cersei? Is there not traders who go north to Hardhome to trade with the Wildlings? Giving them hides and weapons?

The difference between Tyrion and Cersei is that he fully acknowledges his evil side.

[Curled Finger]

The nobles of the Vale did treat Tyrion poorly and had every intention of killing him.  It is not unreasonable for him to want revenge on these people.   He does have a certain amount of power after all.  Having been marginalized by so many for so much of his life why not take full advantage of any and all support Tyrion is offered? 

Tyrion Lannister was innocent of the charges he was condemned for.  Having survived the sky cells and a mock trial, why not kill all these f*ckers if he's got the chance to?   

Edited February 15, 2023 by Curled Finger
after thought

[Angel Eyes]

Don't play innocent with Cersei. Wasn't there a point where she thought Robert should have committed genocide against the Ironborn in AFFC?

Quote

Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him, Cersei thought. He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls. That was what her father would have done, but Robert never had the stomach that a king requires if he hopes to keep peace in the realm.

 

[boltons are sick]

33 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Don't play innocent with Cersei. Wasn't there a point where she thought Robert should have committed genocide against the Ironborn in AFFC?

There is a huge difference between having disturbing, dark thoughts and actually acting on them.

Also, I have never claimed that Cersei is innocent because she herself has committed crimes, but she never tried to kill all the Ironborn.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

There is a huge difference between having disturbing, dark thoughts and actually acting on them.

Also, I have never claimed that Cersei is innocent because she herself has committed crimes, but she never tried to kill all the Ironborn.

She would have if given the opportunity.

[Craving Peaches]

48 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, I have never claimed that Cersei is innocent because she herself has committed crimes, but she never tried to kill all the Ironborn.

Any Tyrion never tried to kill everyone in the Vale, nor did he even think about wiping out all the Valemen like Cersei did with the Ironborn. Tyrion isn't nice but that doesn't mean you have to downplay all of the horrible things Cersei has done.