I hope there is no 'Aegon's Prophecy' Retcon in the Books

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I hope not but I fear that it's going to happen anyway.

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't care you call that genocide or war crimes or brutal war. Too many died for the hubris of one man and his sisters.

Harren was rabid and had to be terminated. I'm fine with that. The rest was unnecessary.

The only thing apparent from this prophecy is that one of the Targaryen blood has to have a child with someone of Westeros (a Stark). The rest is Targaryen madness, hubris, thirst for power. The prophecy is talking of a Prince. But a Prince chosen by the gods, not by a blood-thirsty conqueror. If Aegon invaded Westeros because of this prophecy, he did it all wrong.

Edited April 9, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Hugorfonics]

John the Fiddler dreamed of a dragon hatching in the White Halls. This led to his incarceration and the death of all his supporters. His ancestors and future cousins also dreamed of the future, it also usually caused travesty. 

If Aegon thought of conquering 7 kingdoms of barbarians so in 300 years the sky above won't fall, id think he's as insane as any other Targaryen or Blackfyre. 

But what's the difference? William thought that despite the playing field he had a good chance of coming out king of England, Aegon thought the same of Westeros. William had a weak pretext and according to this maybe dream, Aegon did as well. But let's not pretend that the contemporaries of the Ironborn/Danes weren't doing their very best to conquer said lands as well, and just as, if not more so, brutal.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The only thing apparent from this prophecy is that one of the Targaryen blood has to have a child with someone of Westeros (a Stark).

Because "his is the song of ice and fire"?  Or is there more?

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The rest is Targaryen madness, hubris, thirst for power. The prophecy is talking of a Prince. But a Prince chosen by the gods, not by a blood-thirsty conqueror. If Aegon invaded Westeros because of this prophecy, he did it all wrong.

Yes.  Those treacherous prophesies.  Kings are always misinterpreting them.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Aegon thought of conquering 7 kingdoms of barbarians so in 300 years the sky above won't fall, id think he's as insane as any other Targaryen or Blackfyre.

Since Aegon chose to marry his two dragonriding sisters, and then adopted the 3-headed dragon as his heraldry, I would imagine he was thinking of the current generation, and not 300 years hence.

But prophesies are constantly being reinterpreted when they fail to come true in the current generation.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Because "his is the song of ice and fire"?  Or is there more?

I don't know if there is more to it. I think the "Song of Ice and Fire" is something Rhaegar created. From his belief the Long Night was coming and was unavoidable. My guess: something he learnt from the Ghost of High Heart.

The Azor Ahai prophecy tells us much more things. Melisandre mixes the 2 and believes they are pointing to the same hero. Maester Aemon and Marwyn seem to think the same. I don't know.

The Dragon has 3 heads, seems something created by Aegon. Possibly only because he thought he was that prince and had 2 sisters and 3 dragons. I'm not sure it has any significance, other than things often going by three with the Targaryens. Is the case anyway for Dany's many visions.

Dany's visions seem to drive to something different. Are they from R'hllor and the Shadows? From something different? I think there are more than Ice and Fire at play.

[chrisdaw]

It doesn't conflict with anything and the necessary background is there. Magic is real, Valyrians were sorcerers, Targaryens were sorcerers, among other abilities they could predict cataclysmic events which they may take action to avoid or prevent. It's not a retcon it's a reveal and it plays into story themes, most particularly Dany's arc.

There's likely also a heavy Stannis parallel in it. Stannis is Aegon having these dreams about the end of the world unless he intervenes to save it. Visenya like Melisandre, probably has undeniable sorcery and is pushing Aegon/Stannis into doing some far more out there brutal shit than he is morally comfortable with, for the sake of saving the world. Stannis' story will culminate in him relenting to Melisandre and sacrificing Shireen, Aegon probably didn't relent to whatever crazy Visenya was attempting to get him to do (maybe sacrifice/kill Aenys?).

Edited April 10, 2023 by chrisdaw

[James Arryn]

Playing Devil’s Advocate, though a century or more on they’d convert to the Seven, Aenar and his exiled family would presumably have come to DS as practitioners of w/e religion the Valyrian worshipped, and I would presume Valyrian elements like prophetic dreams would be contextualized within that religious understanding. 
 

As such, from a religious point of view, if prophecy is connected to the religion, then the obvious question about their being saved from the Doom would be ‘why us?’ Either as part of the original Doom dream or something after, a ‘this is why’ dream should almost be expected, cynics might even call it inevitable. 
 

edit: this does not necessarily mean GRRM had it in mind from the jump, I think the more we learn the more fluid his plans for the books seem to have been, so imo there’s no way of knowing either way. He might not even be able to pinpoint it’s exact moment of origin, he may have always known the prophecy stuff would come full circle without mapping out exactly how, for example, and only gradually added detail, but it would still be fairly called his original intention. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by James Arryn

[frenin]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, Morte said:

Because the first sentence of your definition is the most important, as it tells the difference between genocide and any other atrocity - the intent.

That intent existed tho.

Whereas it started as simply a war of conquest, after Rhaenys died, well it entered a new phase.

[csuszka1948]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:03 AM, Mithras said:

If this was always in the plans, then it is bad writing because GRRM failed to build that up in the books so far.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you sure he failed to build it up?

In the House of Undying, Rhaegar says that Aegon is the 'prince who was promised', and 'his is the song of ice and fire'. Thus, the 'song of ice and fire' never referred to a person, but to something else that has not been explained yet.

It is also mentioned that Rhaegar was a bookish prince who one day found something in the scrolls that changed him and led to him becoming a warrior. What could this be if not some scrolls (probably from Aegon or one of his descendants who was aware of this knowledge) about the 'song of ice and fire'?

Who else but the 'bookish prince' would find the scroll that gives the title of the books?

Edited June 15, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Mourning Star]

On 4/7/2023 at 6:13 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Subtle as in non-existent? If people really did see this coming long ago I would love to see proof.

I think the most satisfying explanation to me is that when talking about the “Aegon’s Prophesy” in the show we have to accept that it’s a super simplified version of what we see happening in the books.

The idea that Aegon thought the Targaryens needed to unite Westeros to face the Others, is like cutting all the corners and uncertainty out of what we see in the books. Take all the prophesies and simplify it into one for the tv audience.

Targaryens have had prophetic dreams going back to at least Daenys, before the doom. The story of Azor Ahai seems to be called the “prince that was promised”, but that translation also seems to include a genderless version of “dragon”, so maybe the dragon that was promised. Meanwhile the dragon has three heads, and house Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. The prince that was promised would be born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, obviously comes long after Aegon, but we can see the Targaryen expectation for their decedents reflected clearly there.

Meanwhile the Last Hero is said to have ended the Long Night with his blade of Dragonsteel. If we assume this is the same story as Azor Ahai, then he also seems to have united peoples in his twelve companions, who in the world book seem to have come from cultures all over the world (especially Essos), and there is talk about the followers of Azor Ahai getting resurrected… anyway, I digress.

I think we need to see the TV version as an oversimplified version of the prophesy we see in the books, representing an amalgamation of prophesy and visions in a way that can be easily digested by the viewer.

In the books it seems reasonable to me that Aegon had access to some old prophesies (like Rhaegar might have found in his books), and may have had dreams himself, like we see multiple Targaryens in the books have, but nothing so clear and concise as what is spelled out on TV. Rather we would expect some much more difficult to interpret vision or wordplay that misleads the characters.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Kierria]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:19 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I will not be happy if it happens. It conflicts with Aegon's actions in Fire and Blood and there is a complete lack of foreshadowing for it in the books. It will stand out to me as a blatant retcon and undermine my ability to immerse myself in the story. I do not feel there is any need for it and it would be silly. And of course people will then start claiming that Aegon's Dornish genocide was justified/necessary and that anyone who opposes the great Targaryan dynasty is a traitor to humanity and all that...

We must be on different camps when it comes to the families we like.  I have always seen Daenerys and the Targaryens as the protagonists.  The clues are there in the Daenerys sections in the books.  Her dream vision of walking and then running fast while her godly ancestors were telling her to go faster.  The three betrayals which she has to discover, expose, and then punish.  The Sealord of Bravos must have understood and that was why he was supporting the restoration of the Targaryens.  Qaithe is going through a lot of trouble to protect Daenerys and her dragons.  The Gods took Rhaegar and Viserys out of the way to make sure it is Daenerys who will rule.  Daenerys is more capable than any of the leaders of an age with her.  She is the only person who can be trusted with enormous armies and the power that comes along with that. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

2 minutes ago, Kierria said:

We must be on different camps when it comes to the families we like.  I have always seen Daenerys and the Targaryens as the protagonists.  The clues are there in the Daenerys sections in the books.  Her dream vision of walking and then running fast while her godly ancestors were telling her to go faster.  The three betrayals which she has to discover, expose, and then punish.  The Sealord of Bravos must have understood and that was why he was supporting the restoration of the Targaryens.  Qaithe is going through a lot of trouble to protect Daenerys and her dragons.  The Gods took Rhaegar and Viserys out of the way to make sure it is Daenerys who will rule.  Daenerys is more capable than any of the leaders of an age with her.  She is the only person who can be trusted with enormous armies and the power that comes along with that. 

There are so many things wrong with what you said.

1. the Targs being “heroes” just aren’t true and it’s your opinion. Dany being a hero, at least as far as the Long Night goes, is a given I’ll grant you that.

2. “Godly” 

3. Sea Lord of Braavos. Holy schnikes that is a jump. Massive assumption with absolutely nothing but a hunch behind it.

4. Quaithe, possibly. I think it’s also possible she is working for/with Euron. We will find out.

5. The Gods 

6. Dany isn’t the ONLY capable leader around at this time. Nor is she the only one of her age group. 

[csuszka1948]

I wouldn't say the Targaryens are heroes, but (as it became clear to me after this Aegon prophecy reveal) they are not antagonists either as much of the fandom thinks.

The main antagonists of ASOIAF are the Lannisters (+Euron), the main protagonists are the Starks (+Dany) and House Targaryen (and to a lesser extent House Baratheon) stands between them, dancing between madness and greatness. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Kierria said:

I have always seen Daenerys and the Targaryens as the protagonists.  The clues are there in the Daenerys sections in the books. 

Yeah, like the bit where she has two girls tortured in front of their father. Real protagonist vibes from that scene.

5 hours ago, Kierria said:

She is the only person who can be trusted with enormous armies and the power that comes along with that. 

Yes, I sure would trust someone who can't rule a single city with all of that.

[The Sleeper]

I don't think it is a retcon. There are multiple references since the beginning of the books and extra material of various Targaryens being preoccupied with prophecy, either through dreams of their own or through other sources. Rhaegar is the most prominent and relevant in the main story, but maester Aemon is among those who takes it seriously and the first Aerys along with Bloodraven were also preoccupied with it. The second Jaehaerys married Aerys and Rhaela due to the prophecy as he was obviously aware what the Ghost of High Heart was talking about. 

As for the original Aegon, it seems clear to me that the Targaryen banner is a direct reference to the three heads of the dragon in the prophecy.

I would guess that the broad strokes of this stuff had taken shape by Clash, but the idea of tying these together probably existed beforehand.

Regardless of when he came with it, it works just fine in the story, no retcon required. 

That said, the show version of it being part of the legacy each Targaryen king passed on to the next doesn't work. For one the succession rarely worked that smoothly and obviously there were plenty of Targaryens who didn't give a crap about any prophecy or were unaware of it. There is also the fact that prophecies in the book almost never contain that much ambiguous information. It seems most likely to me that they little more than what the readers have been told in the main series and it would have been subject to interpretation.

In that context, I think the original Aegon didn't start his conquest for descendants of his three hundred years into the future, but because he thought that the prophecy was about him and his wives. It is consistent for a conqueror to justify his actions on a divine mandate or destiny.

It could be that the Martel letter actually contained some relevant information about the prophecy convincing him that it wasn't him and/or that the eventual prince would of Martel blood as well.