Titanic Horror! Tourist Submersible Goes Missing While Attempting to View Wreckage of Titanic.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Doesn't them knowingly deploy an unsafe construction (I mean why have the passengers sign a waiver if you believe in your vehicle) qualify as depraved indifference?

The difficulty might be in proving deraved indifference- the company would just claim their CEO went along on every dive, so he erroneously believed the sub was safe.

But I agree the waiver is probably nulled.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Derfel Cadarn

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

(I mean why have the passengers sign a waiver if you believe in your vehicle) 

You sign waivers for lots of things. Some things you just can't do without some inherent risk. You sign a waiver when you go go-karting- that doesn't mean the company doesn't believe their in safety measures. It just means that sometimes, by the nature of it, if you crash you're gonna get hurt. In a more similar scenario, Virgin Galactic passengers sign similar waivers, acknowledging the risk of death or injury - it doesn't mean that their vehicles are the same kind of deathtrap.

 

 

The issue here is that the sub was far more shoddily constructed than passengers could reasonably expect.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Are we talking really fast go karts here? Because the only time I had to sign anything was if it could reach a certain speed that required a driver's license. They didn't make us sign shit when we were younger. Maybe our parents had to, but I'd often go with groups of kids and no one seemed to play by any rules. 

Oh the 90's. 

[polishgenius]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are we talking really fast go karts here? Because the only time I had to sign anything was if it could reach a certain speed that required a driver's license. They didn't make us sign shit when we were younger. Maybe our parents had to, but I'd often go with groups of kids and no one seemed to play by any rules. 

Oh the 90's. 

No, but we are talking England.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

No, but we are talking England.

England, with your silly rules and regulations. I bet it wouldn't even let me go on a unsafe deep dive sub. Wait, shit. 

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well that's the question at hand. You have to sign waivers for a lot of things. I'm trying to build up the courage to go sky diving. I wouldn't be shocked if I had to sign something.

You are right.  You will have to sign something.  If they don't ask you to sign something, run, run run far away from the skydiving center.  If they can't afford competent lawyering, whose to say they have invested in decent parachutes?

Anyway, reading just the last page of the thread, I noticed we are discussing the scope of the waiver in the abstract.  You should read it if you haven't yet: 

https://www.insider.com/read-oceangate-waiver-titan-sub-passengers-lists-numerous-death-risks-2023-7

I have thoughts, but I'll just point out that how this waiver would be interpreted will depend on which legal system any claim would be brought it.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Anyway, reading just the last page of the thread, I noticed we are discussing the scope of the waiver in the abstract.  You should read it if you haven't yet: 

https://www.insider.com/read-oceangate-waiver-titan-sub-passengers-lists-numerous-death-risks-2023-7

I have thoughts, but I'll just point out that how this waiver would be interpreted will depend on which legal system any claim would be brought it.  

Always the lawyer. 

Quote

You are right.  You will have to sign something.  If they don't ask you to sign something, run, run run far away from the skydiving center.  If they can't afford competent lawyering, whose to say they have invested in decent parachutes?

Be a real American!

Also, is there a turbo button in skydiving? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Doesn't them knowingly deploy an unsafe construction (I mean why have the passengers sign a waiver if you believe in your vehicle) qualify as depraved indifference?

Perhaps… 

[Larry of the Lawn]

In the US actually going to trial for a criminal proceeding is not common.  Prosecutors are gunning for plea deals.

10 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

100% agree, prosecutors and DAs care more about their winning percentage than the 72 Dolphins. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of potential serious crimes not even being tried, especially if the suspect can afford a good attorney. I really wish that culture would change. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a high standard, but it can't scare you.

I don't think there's much of a shortage in this country with prosecutors trying cases on scant or shitty evidence.  

[James Arryn]

20 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

100% agree, prosecutors and DAs care more about their winning percentage than the 72 Dolphins. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of potential serious crimes not even being tried, especially if the suspect can afford a good attorney. I really wish that culture would change. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a high standard, but it can't scare you.

Yeah, though to me it’s the other way it cuts that’s the worst, all the innocent people in prison because they had neither the resources nor experience to get justice. I’d rather several guilty parties go free before one innocent person is jailed or executed. The former is bad, the latter is one of the worst things a society can do.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, though to me it’s the other way it cuts that’s the worst, all the innocent people in prison because they had neither the resources nor experience to get justice. I’d rather several guilty parties go free before one innocent person is jailed or executed. The former is bad, the latter is one of the worst things a society can do.

Obviously we don't want a system that allows innocent people to go to prison. That's a different issue though. I'm lamenting the situations in which the individual or individuals are likely guilty, but because the DA/prosecutor doesn't see it as a slam dunk they just completely let them off the hook. And it overwhelming happens for rich white people. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Even in copaganda TV shows it always seems like plea deals mainly exist to get innocents that can't afford good lawyers into prison and get rich people low sentences.

[James Arryn]

6 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Even in copaganda TV shows it always seems like plea deals mainly exist to get innocents that can't afford good lawyers into prison and get rich people low sentences.

Yeah, and first, there are waaaaaaaay more of the former than the latter in the world, and even more disproportionately on the wrong side of the V. A normal person facing the state offering a plea deal is…don’t want to say threatened because I doubt it’s made explicit, and also because it is accurate…is given the strong impression that this offer is the result of their not being particularly important atm, but that if it’s rejected, the full gaze of the system will focus on them, and bring all their resources to bear.
 

You, not rich defendant who likely first meets their public defender while actually in the dock or in the lineup waiting to appear, just like they are meeting their other 10-20 new clients today…you are accurately assessing your chances here as pretty close to nil regardless of your innocence. And you are facing your life’s destruction, one way or another, while the asst. prosecutor is just having another day at work. Once the state decides you are guilty, you will see how much that solidifies opinion against you…smoke, fire, all that…despite w/e people say about burden of proof in abstract. And the majesty of the court proceedings magnify that; surely all this would not be happening, all these people would not be coming to this place, etc. if they weren’t certain. That’s not really said out loud, but it’s in the back of many minds. Now good legal teams know this and will work to mitigate it, but you are lucky if your PDA remembers your name accurately, you sure aren’t getting any coaching. They just don’t have the time or energy, mostly.
 

So yeah, you’ll take the deal. Especially if it’s keeping you out of prison or time served, yeah, because that is a very real difference in your life. It’s still destroyed, but you aren’t as worried about being raped or shanked or just forced to watch your life waste away in a closet. And all your innocence is doing now is driving you insane and potentially making parole impossible. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by James Arryn

[Lord of Oop North]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:56 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Manslaughter requires an element of passion.  I could see “negligent homicide”… but… manslaughter isn’t the correct charge.

Not up here in Canada, and I believe other Commonwealth countries. For culpable homicides, we have: first degree murder, second degree murder, infanticide, and manslaughter.

A murder has to be deliberate, either with or without planning (the primary difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder).

Any culpable homicide that is not murder or infanticide is automatically considered manslaughter. Manslaughter is a culpable, non-intentional homicide, where death can be caused by unlawful act or criminal negligence. For a crime of passion what happens is the charge of murder is reduced to manslaughter.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Lord of Oop North

[Tears of Lys]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:56 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Manslaughter requires an element of passion.  I could see “negligent homicide”… but… manslaughter isn’t the correct charge.

I'm sorry, Ser Scott, but isn't that voluntary manslaughter?  There's all sorts of dumbass killings that can fall into the "negligent homicide" category, but I don't believe manslaughter in general requires passion.   

But I could be all wrong.  YOU'RE the lawyer!