Catelyn Stark was right, about basically everything

[sifth]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

Roose Bolton's treachery was basically immediate, because no one had any inkling he could do such a thing -- not the fellow lords and warriors he deliberately led to their deaths, and not the Starks (and not even the Stark direwolves, as far as we know!) Pinning that on Catelyn is foolish.

 

The whole direwolf's being able to sense traitors thing, was something GRRM didn't invent until the third book. You'll notice how lady isn't able to sense Joff's true nature or Cersei's. Same with Greywind and Theon. Yes, the wolves protected the kids and could sense when their lives were in danger, but the whole "the wolves don't like someone, so they're a traitor" thing, didn't start until book 3 onward.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, fiatlux said:

what gift? Tyrion?

Tyrion. That he waddles up to her with his stupid grim while she's surrounded by her father's knights, if she didn't arrest him I don't wanna really say sacrilegious because she never actually made this connection, but it would be foolish and regrettable.

4 hours ago, fiatlux said:

I think she thought she didn't have those 60 seconds , on rereads I grind my teeth so hard!

Iirc the Vale wildlings attacked as soon as the conversation hit 120 seconds, and then when the battle was finished Tyrion made a slightly amusing but mainly disgusting joke about Cat with her sellswords Bronn and them, so after that Cat was in no mood to talk to Tyrion while Tyrion felt momentum and looked for retribution.

Lol like Stannis!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:25 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Yea for sure. Crazy. It's 2023 not 1923.( Also, I kinda feel like in Cat and Sansas pov we witness the plot moving more then most)

Now having said that I kinda do wonder how much of the pushback on Catelyn is based on misogynism. Like, this lady should know her place and not get into politics or make the decisive family decisions. She does open the story scolding her husband on how to do his job, I read that as a constructive partnership where they were frustrated but yeah I also wasn't trained to think women are crazy and jealous or whatever. 

Definitely. Certainly in universe the pushback is based on misogynism, probably most of the time. She's just a little woman, what does she know of the ways of war? 

I think Ned & Cat had a pretty good partnership (though I would kick Ned's ass for bringing home a new baby & refusing to tell me his mothers name, one of the many reasons I wouldn't fit in very well LOL) They would definitely be burning me at the stake. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:43 AM, sifth said:

The whole direwolf's being able to sense traitors thing, was something GRRM didn't invent until the third book. You'll notice how lady isn't able to sense Joff's true nature or Cersei's. Same with Greywind and Theon. Yes, the wolves protected the kids and could sense when their lives were in danger, but the whole "the wolves don't like someone, so they're a traitor" thing, didn't start until book 3 onward

Did GRRM say he didn't think of it until then? If not could be explained away by the fact that Lady is just a pup when she is killed.

Tbf, I don't think that was Theon's true nature. I think he was a twat but not a malicious twat until his father's home coming pushed him to the point of no return. He was trying to find himself & was being accused of being a Wolf etc over something he had no control over, he was a hostage. 

Not condoing anything he did, just saying I don't think it's who he is, he just made some very poor decisions. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/12/2023 at 8:57 PM, sifth said:

She doesn’t know Karstark is going to kill Jamie. In fact Karstark only kills the two young Lannisters, because he’s angry at Robb for pardoning Cat. She only frees Jamie because she thinks the Lannisters will give her Sansa back if she does; which they naturally have no right to do.

Hmm. I may be wrong but I thought Cat discusses her fear that Jaime will be killed. 

 

At any rate, they have every right to do that.

[John Suburbs]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:51 PM, Springwatch said:

The last ship's captain sold her to Varys; I don't blame her for feeling burned. It's an easy thing for Varys to keep agents on the docks at KL, and other ports too.

I assumed it was Varys? He has the better networks, surely?

It's an even easier thing for Littlefinger, the Master of Coin, to have his agents on the docks. Nine of every ten harbormasters and customs agents are his men. And he owns at least some of the brothels where dozens of common oarsmen with fresh silver in their hands are telling tales of the rich lady who just came into port. It was Petyr's men, after all, who first came to Cat at the inn that Moreo lined up for her.

[sifth]

6 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Did GRRM say he didn't think of it until then? If not could be explained away by the fact that Lady is just a pup when she is killed.

Tbf, I don't think that was Theon's true nature. I think he was a twat but not a malicious twat until his father's home coming pushed him to the point of no return. He was trying to find himself & was being accused of being a Wolf etc over something he had no control over, he was a hostage. 

Not condoing anything he did, just saying I don't think it's who he is, he just made some very poor decisions. 

It's just one of those strange things you notice, whenever you reread the first book. GRRM didn't have the universe completely fleshed out. For example he also had a line by Cat in her first chapter, informing the reader that there were no weirdwoods south of the Neck, but in the North one could be found in every castle. Yet, as we learn in the later books, every major castle has a weirwood, even Riverrun, where Cat grew up. In fact, I think Robb and his northern men pray in front of Riverrun's weirwood at the end of the first book.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:45 PM, sifth said:

The guy looked like Dracula, his family has a history of hating Starks and making their skins into cloaks. 
 

Sorry, but Cat thinking Roose “Judas” Balton was the right guy for the job was beyond dumb.

Right

His family. Not him.

As far as Cat know and the histories show, the Boltons have been loyal and obedient to the Starks for hundreds of years.

 

[sifth]

45 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Right

His family. Not him.

As far as Cat know and the histories show, the Boltons have been loyal and obedient to the Starks for hundreds of years.

So if one of your generals had the last name Hitler and happened to be his great grandson, you'd completely trust him, no questions asked? Listen, I liked Cat as well, but trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake she made. She's a flawed character, like every other character in the series. I like Tyrion as well, but I'm not going to make excuses for the mistakes he made.

Edited July 17, 2023 by sifth

[Ran]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Listen, I liked Cat as well, but trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake she made.

It's a mistake everyone made, dude. 

 

 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's a mistake everyone made, dude. 

 

 

True enough, but her talking Robb into giving him command of half his army, is her contribution to the mistake. The guy has a flayed man for crying out loud for his banner, he looks like Dracula, and Robb mentioned that he scared the living daylights out of him. On top of that Ned never trusted him and if he advised Robb in a similar manner, it was probably to take the most violent path possible, I recall Roose advising Ned to murder Barristan on the spot, when he was brought to him injured.

Plus his whole family history of murdering Starks and skinning them alive. I mean how many red flags do you need, I can go all day, lol

Edited July 17, 2023 by sifth

[BlackLightning]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

So if one of your generals had the last name Hitler and happened to be his great grandson, you'd completely trust him, no questions asked? Listen, I liked Cat as well, but trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake she made. She's a flawed character, like every other character in the series. I like Tyrion as well, but I'm not going to make excuses for the mistakes he made.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd Godwin's Law has once again been invoked

Look, trusting Roose Bolton was a mistake. But that's not something she -- or anyone else -- could have possibly known or foresaw. I can't hold that against her. Roose did a very good job keeping his hands clean and had proven himself more than once (i.e. Robert's Rebellion, Greyjoy Rebellion). And absolutely no one knew that Ramsay was a demon that needed to be kept on a leash in some kennel in hell.

Based on all of the information that was on the table, Roose Bolton was the better choice to lead the other half of the Stark army than Rickard Karstark and Greatjon Umber. 

[Craving Peaches]

You can't judge people based on actions of past family members too much, or none of the nobles would be able to trust anyone...

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can't judge people based on actions of past family members too much, or none of the nobles would be able to trust anyone...

 

It's not just that, but Bolton's betrayal was built upon a series of crazy coincidences: Ramsay is captured but disguises himself as Reek, Theon takes the castle, frees him, 'kills' Stark children on his suggestion and comes back with a Bolton army just in time to make a surprise attack on Ser Rodrik and his army and burn Winterfell down. 

[Craving Peaches]

On 7/17/2023 at 11:25 PM, csuszka1948 said:

It's not just that, but Bolton's betrayal was built upon a series of crazy coincidences: Ramsay is captured but disguises himself as Reek, Theon takes the castle, frees him, 'kills' Stark children on his suggestion and comes back with a Bolton army just in time to make a surprise attack on Ser Rodrik and his army and burn Winterfell down. 

Yeah, the anti-Stark factions got really lucky, it would be silly to expect Robb/Catelyn to foresee all that, plus a lot of it wasn't even related to Roose and whether he had command or not.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:21 AM, Ran said:

No it wasn't. Selective quoting does not help you. Continue that passage:

And then proceeds to listen to the plan and be impressed by it. She's fully on board by that point.

The fact that she is the voice of caution in these matters does not make her "wrong about most things".

I'm not saying she is. I'm not a Cat-hater and I think she is often, perhaps even usually, right. But she is not right about "basically everything", which is the premise of this thread.

There is a big middle ground between "Cat is always right" and "Cat is always wrong" and that's where I live.
 

Quote

 

As to Robb not being able to "afford" indecision before men like Karstark or Bolton, I'm pretty sure this is all about her concern that if they just think he's a green boy, they'll lose confidence and respect for him, which may make them try and take a few more liberties with their rights as lords. Doesn't mean they'll become full-on traitors at the drop of a hat. 

Roose Bolton's treachery was basically immediate, because no one had any inkling he could do such a thing -- not the fellow lords and warriors he deliberately led to their deaths, and not the Starks (and not even the Stark direwolves, as far as we know!) Pinning that on Catelyn is foolish.

 

I don't pin it entirely on Cat, and she probably couldn't have foreseen the treachery. But her counsel was a contributing factor to Roose's being in a position to pull any of the nonsense that he did, and I am not convinced that the Greatjon wouldn't have done at least as good a job without the later possibility of treachery.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

It's not just that, but Bolton's betrayal was built upon a series of crazy coincidences: Ramsay is captured but disguises himself as Reek, Theon takes the castle, frees him, 'kills' Stark children on his suggestion and comes back with a Bolton army just in time to make a surprise attack on Ser Rodrik and his army and burn Winterfell down. 

Are you saying Ramsay is the soul reason he betrayed the Starks? 
 

 

[The hairy bear]

11 hours ago, sifth said:

The guy has a flayed man for crying out loud for his banner, he looks like Dracula

So... Catelyn gave Robb bad counsel because she failed to warn him that the loyalty of his vassals should be assessed on the basis of their banners and their looks?

She should have also warned his family about those nasty Mallisters. Eagles are known to prey on fishes, now and then. And of course, Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey's beauty would make them totally trustworthy.

11 hours ago, sifth said:

On top of that Ned never trusted him

Are you reaching that conclusion on the basis of a single known instance when Ned didn't listen to him? If Roose was able to propose to kill Barristan to both Ned and Robert, it means that he had access to the inner circle of the Rebellion. I don't seen any indication that he wasn't trusted.

11 hours ago, sifth said:

if he advised Robb in a similar manner, it was probably to take the most violent path possible, I recall Roose advising Ned to murder Barristan on the spot, when he was brought to him injured.

Barristan was badly wounded, and he had just killed a dozen noble friends. He was loyal to the old regime, and being one of the few people the Mad King would listen, one could wonder if she couldn't have intervened to restrain him during his cruelest crimes. I'm sure Roose wouldn't have been the only one thinking that Barristan should be killed.

11 hours ago, sifth said:

Plus his whole family history of murdering Starks and skinning them alive.

A history from more than one thousand years ago!!!

Come on! Doran Martell trusts Anders Yronwood. Jon Arryn trusted Yohn Royce. Their ancestors also killed each other, and surely there are horrible tales of murder and betrayal in each family's past. This is Westeros. All thee bannermen of every single lord were once rivals and enemies.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

So... Catelyn gave Robb bad counsel because she failed to warn him that the loyalty of his vassals should be assessed on the basis of their banners and their looks?

 

I mean if the shoe fits. The guy might as well just worn a sticker that said "I'm evil", with a banner like that. Everything about the guy from his first appearance threw up red flags for me.

He's quite literally George's equivalent of "who could have believe coach feratu, was a vampire".

Edited July 18, 2023 by sifth

[The hairy bear]

But isn't it a little unfair to judge that in retrospect?

I mean, Robb is also scared by the Greatjon. He is violent, brutish and insubordinate. He went as far as to draw his sword against Robb, and if it weren't for Grey Wind's intervention, who knows how that may have ended. He also has an uncle called the "Whoresbane", as per the healthy practice of disemboweling whores. And of course, the banner of house Umber is a giant breaking his chains, which plainly reveals that they plan to revolt against their liege lords.

George could as easily have written a story where Roose turns out to be loyal and the Greatjon betrays Robb to the Lannisters. But without the benefit of hindsight, wouldn't any wise advisor suggest to trust the prudent pale-skinned lord instead of the unruly one?