Catelyn, Sansa, Daenerys, and Sexism in the ASOIAF Fandom

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Well, hello, all. I want to start with this : I present male and was AMAB. I am not an expert on sexism, but I am a feminist, and all I want to discuss here is something that has made me annoyed as I reread ASOIAF and re-enter the fandom once again. 

So sexism. And the sexism within this fandom I find to be very specific. It is a dislike of any characters that have...well any feminine traits. A dislike of femininity, and yes, that is sexism. If you only like female characters when they act like boys, you are still a sexist, just a different kind of sexist. So, examples. The first topic I picked on when returning to the fandom was a list of the best PoVs. I thought it would be fun. The fact that the top like 6 POVs were all male already kind of had a trigger warning going off in my head, and then they wrote casually in both Sansa and Catelyn's section how they "lost the war for the Starks". Listen, if this is a take you have, I think you are harboring sexist feelings, period. You are projecting, and you are simplifying things you so they are the way you want them to be. The war, both the causes for, and the reasons for the Starks losing, are extremely complex..not simple, nor can you blame them on one person. But so so so so so so SO many do in this fandom. So many put the blame firmly at Catelyn's feet, and occasionally Sansa's. Another post I clicked on listed a usual list of how Sansa, Catelyn, and Daenerys were very stupid. Again, notice that they chose 3 feminine characters to think are stupid. 

The hardship of calling out this kind of sexism is it is not like they come out and say, "I'm a sexist," or directly talk about disliking these characters for being feminine or women, but...it's there. What they choose to criticize, how they choose to criticize them, why male characters who make similar mistakes are often given the benefit of the doubt or even beloved. Stannis and Tywin have huge followings in the fandom despite the former making...a lot of blunders (I would argue far greater than any Daenerys or Catelyn make) and the latter being straight up evil (honestly, if you find yourself defending Tywin brutally murdering a bunch of people, question yourself if you are actually a good person. Seriously, look inside yourself) and also made blunders (his treatment of others led to his downfall, yes, it did. Don't at me. And how he ran his household I think will lead House Lannister to ruin by the end of the books). Listen, I am not calling you a sexist if you dislike Catelyn or Daenerys or Sansa. I've heard very good reasons for disliking these characters, but I often find people BADLY, and I mean BADLY misread these characters and also judge them for things they would never judge a man for. The amount of posts telling me how Catelyn is a horrible mother for going south to protect her family is mind boggling, meanwhile Stannis or Robert, who are objectively terrible fathers rarely get called out for it. I guess I don't know where exactly to go with this, but discuss I suppose. Discuss. And no, by the way, the topic is not "Rag on Catelyn or Daenerys". Don't do that. Discuss the sexism. That is the topic I am presenting. If you want to defend people and say they aren't sexist, I guess you can do that, but don't just write a huge comment about how horrible Sansa is...because isn't really the topic at hand. 

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Sansa and Catelyn's section how they "lost the war for the Starks".

Sansa I don't get because she was a child, wasn't even aware there was a war looming etc. Catelyn I can kind of see but at the same time, by the time she releases Jaime, Robb is already massively outnumbered by the Lannister/Tyrell alliance anyway plus having to take back Winterfell from the Ironborn, his chances of success were not looking good at that point regardless. If the release of Jaime cost the Starks anything it was getting better peace terms but given Robb didn't want to make peace, this essentially did nothing. If anything 'lost the war for the Starks' it was Renly dying, which Catelyn had no control over.

I find Sansa is sometimes judged really unfairly with people saying she is a 'traitor' who 'betrayed her family' but I just don't see it. At it's heart it seems to me to be people criticising Sansa for being naïve (which sometimes ties into criticism for enjoying 'stereotypical feminine things' unlike Arya, as well as people not liking she follows the Faith of the Seven...).

These characters are judged unfairly, but I think it is more to do with people having unrealistic expectations of them rather than sexism, at least from what I've seen. Sometimes people act like these characters should know everything we know as readers. Also, Sansa was eleven, Catelyn had just lost her husband and two-three children (from her point of view) in close succession, and was desperate to ensure her remaining children were safe.

[Loose Bolt]

In my head canon medieval world people are not woke and only roles the Faith will allow any woman to have are maiden, mother and crone. Any woman who tries to rebel against that natural order is either witch or whore. So sexism is natural and vital part of world building and so any woman who does not accept her role will fail and will suffer consequences of her rebellion against natural order.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

medieval world people are not woke

Welp, most certainly, not when the cost of raising a child is low and the income of getting a child working pays for itself.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

So sexism is natural and vital part of world building and so any woman who does not accept her role will fail and will suffer consequences of her rebellion against natural order.

The OP clearly states the concern is sexism in the fandom, as opposed to the book.  Sexism in the book would be a different thread. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Sansa I don't get because she was a child, wasn't even aware there was a war looming etc. Catelyn I can kind of see but at the same time, by the time she releases Jaime, Robb is already massively outnumbered by the Lannister/Tyrell alliance anyway plus having to take back Winterfell from the Ironborn, his chances of success were not looking good at that point regardless. If the release of Jaime cost the Starks anything it was getting better peace terms but given Robb didn't want to make peace, this essentially did nothing. If anything 'lost the war for the Starks' it was Renly dying, which Catelyn had no control over.

I find Sansa is sometimes judged really unfairly with people saying she is a 'traitor' who 'betrayed her family' but I just don't see it. At it's heart it seems to me to be people criticising Sansa for being naïve (which sometimes ties into criticism for enjoying 'stereotypical feminine things' unlike Arya, as well as people not liking she follows the Faith of the Seven...).

These characters are judged unfairly, but I think it is more to do with people having unrealistic expectations of them rather than sexism, at least from what I've seen. Sometimes people act like these characters should know everything we know as readers. Also, Sansa was eleven, Catelyn had just lost her husband and two-three children (from her point of view) in close succession, and was desperate to ensure her remaining children were safe.

Sansa I agree 100%. Cat is more complicated. She absolutely damaged Robb’s reputation amounts this bannermen with what she did. And while I do think the Riverlands were a lost cause, I also absolutely believe Robb would’ve retaken the North. The hardest part would’ve obviously been Moat Cailin. But with the Crannogmen on his side, he’d be able to attack it from both sides. He’d have a very good chances of taking it. Once that’s done it’d be easy for a general of his caliber to retake the North from the Ironborn.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I actually think there’s a lot less sexism now than there was a few years ago. Sansa is much more popular, for sure. People are more apathetic towards Catelyn—she’s still not particularly popular, but she doesn’t inspire the deranged diatribes anymore.

Dany’s an interesting case. Her going nuts on GOT seems to have softened people towards her somewhat. It’s like how St. Tyrion has made people resent book-Tyrion more. Dany was portrayed as this perfect specimen on GOT for seven seasons, so knocking her from her pedestal made her more human in a way.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

35 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Sansa I agree 100%. Cat is more complicated. She absolutely damaged Robb’s reputation amounts this bannermen with what she did. And while I do think the Riverlands were a lost cause, I also absolutely believe Robb would’ve retaken the North. The hardest part would’ve obviously been Moat Cailin. But with the Crannogmen on his side, he’d be able to attack it from both sides. He’d have a very good chances of taking it. Once that’s done it’d be easy for a general of his caliber to retake the North from the Ironborn.

The Red Wedding is more a result of Robb breaking his marriage vow then anything Catelyn did. However, do you know who is really responsible for the Red Wedding? Walder Frey. Tywin Lannister. Roose Bolton. People who betrayed them and broke all the rules of hospitality of their culture. Not Catelyn, not Robb, not Edmure, etc. Blaming a random woman for a horrific war crime, and since many of the same people don't talk that badly (or even actively defend) Tywin Lannister, .......do i really need to say more. But again, if you WANT to blame someone for the Red Wedding on the Stark side, there are plenty of fingers you can point that won't be at Catelyn. If Lysa had just held Tyrion like Catelyn asked, they could have traded him for Eddard before anything ever happened. If Eddard had just not told Cersei his plans, he could have possibly executed them. If Eddard had taken Renly's offer of men, he could have held the capital and stopped anything else from happening. If Robb had told Edmure his plans, then Edmure would not have attacked Tywin. If Edmure had not attacked Tywin regardless and in fact LISTENED TO Catelyn, who advised him to not attack, then again, the Red Wedding might not happen. Should I really keep going. It was a series of events from a large number of people, and Catelyn is not even the largest player. Acting like she is,,...is honestly strange, and yes, I believe if she was a man, her action would almost be forgotten. If you can forgive Robb for breaking his marriage vow, or forgive Eddard from literally telling his most dangerous foe his entire plan, or forgive Edmure from attacking Tywin, or (puke puke puke) defend Tywin inacting the event itself...then the fact you can't forgive Catelyn, is yes, troubling. 

By the way, none of this is directly at you, but rather others who have directly said the things I am responding to above. And you do seem to suggest...that Catelyn is primarily at fault, which again, I think is ridiculous. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

35 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I actually think there’s a lot less sexism now than there was a few years ago. Sansa is much more popular, for sure. People are more apathetic towards Catelyn—she’s still not particularly popular, but she doesn’t inspire the deranged diatribes anymore.

Dany’s an interesting case. Her going nuts on GOT seems to have softened people towards her somewhat. It’s like how St. Tyrion has made people resent book-Tyrion more. Dany was portrayed as this perfect specimen on GOT for seven seasons, so knocking her from her pedestal made her more human in a way.

Admittedly I just saw a few posts, or commments. Perhaps...it is better. I don't know. It's hard to say. I didn't watch the shows past the 5th seasons, so I have no clue what you are talking about. I have done my best to avoid it. (I did watch the first 4 seasons, but quit in the 5th season when it started straying to far from the books, and I felt annoyed and just generally didn't like the direction it was going...like honestly felt it was not an enjoyable watch by that point. I'm actually rewatching the first season because my partner wanted to watch it, but mostly we have been making fun of the bad decisions it made compared to the book, since I am also rereading the 1st book and my partner is currently reading the second book. By the way, if you enjoy the show, that is completely fine. I just don't, so hard to engage about will mostly just have criticisms. Speaking of sexism in the material itself, the show is SO MUCH more sexist than the books. They give lines originally from women characters to men constantly, and made both Daenerys and Catelyn significantly weaker characters by taking important moments away from them). 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Yes, the show was massively misogynistic. It has become inextricable from its legacy.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

However, do you know who is really responsible for the Red Wedding? Walder Frey. Tywin Lannister. Roose Bolton.

This. This this this this this this this. Readers are blaming characters who are acting out of retaliation. The fact is, the Lannisters, Freys, Boltons, etc have all committed crimes or carried out distasteful acts that are frowned upon in their society as a whole. GRRM has created characters who hold themselves to a higher standard, and yet readers are miffed when honorable characters don't stoop to the antagonists' level. (That one's a little off topic.) But then when a woman in the story, who has little to no power, acts out of desperation, her character gets massive amounts of hate. "She's a selfish, scheming bitch!" Or when she has no power whatsoever, and acts passive because she feels trapped (and is literally a prisoner), she gets hate. Meanwhile, we have male prisoners who wait around to be rescued or let go and no one says a single word about it.

[Craving Peaches]

Also if you're going to criticise a Stark for costing them the War then look no further than Robb, who chose to send Theon to Balon and decided to marry Jeyne. These mistakes are much greater than what Catelyn did because they cost him his capital and seemingly his heirs, shook his vassals faith in him, lead to Catelyn realising Jaime in the first place, and lost him the support of the Freys. If Robb hadn't done that he would have been in a better position, granted I don't think at that point he could hold the North and all the Riverlands but he could certainly make a good effort, wouldn't have to waste time retaking Winterfell and could focus on defences and holing up for the Winter.

[SeanF]

There’s definitely a section of the fandom that view killing as men’s’ work, a soldier’s duty.  But a woman who kills is evil/mad/unnatural.

[sifth]

Wait people hate Sansa? I never knew this. The poor girl is abused by Joff for nearly two whole books. I know she runs to Cersei and gives her all of Ned's plans, but at that point, I doubt it would have made a difference. Cersei already won, the moment Littlefinger choose the Lannisters over Ned. Do people just forget this?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I know she runs to Cersei and gives her all of Ned's plans

All Ned's plans, hmm? Including the one about exposing Joffrey as a bastard? Inviting Stannis to take the throne? Bribing the gold cloaks?

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

There’s definitely a section of the fandom that view killing as men’s’ work, a soldier’s duty.  But a woman who kills is evil/mad/unnatural.

Is there a lot of Brienne hate?

[sifth]

26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

All Ned's plans, hmm? Including the one about exposing Joffrey as a bastard? Inviting Stannis to take the throne? Bribing the gold cloaks?

The only plans Sansa knows about, are how Ned plans for them to leave Kings Landing. We get no scenes from either Ned or Sansa's POV where Ned tells Sansa that he plans to support Stannis and expose Joff as a bastard. Heck, LF was the only person Ned told about bribing the gold cloaks.

Also Ned already revealed to Cersei that he knows all of her kids are bastards, when they met int he garden. So even if Sansa did reveal this info, which she would have no way of knowing, it's a mute point, since Cersei would have already known it.

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

In my head canon medieval world people are not woke

Only when they close their eyes.

Quote

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

I'm reminded of a Shiv Roy Succession quote.

"A woman. That, thats a minus"

"Well of course it's a fucking minus, I didn't make the world"

"You make a small part of it "

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Wait people hate Sansa?

Really?  When I first came to these forums in 2011 trying to have a nice quiet thread about Sansa was near impossible for all the anti-Sansa and Sandor haters and trolls.  They make our current crop of Stark/Jon Snow haters look like little pissants. 

It was bad and am glad those days are over.   

[Alester Florent]

There is a lot less vocal Sansa and Cat hate on the forums than there was, but it used to be incessant, yeah.

It wasn't all bad though. At least we got this thread out of it.