Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Robert should have sent Lurch and Gregor to The Wall; possibly Jamie too, but I can see Robert and Jon A, not wanting to do that, since it would anger Tywin. If Jamie explained Aerys plan to destroy the city, I can see grounds to pardon him. Maybe dismissing him from the Kingsguard, as a way to please Tywin. Robert marrying Cersei directly is a mistake, since Tywin came to his cause late. Maybe allow Stannis or Renly to marry her though, as a way to unite the families. Robert should have married a member of House Tyrell or Martell, to turn a former enemy into a friend and uniting a second powerful house to his cause.

As far as the Tyrells and Martells were concerned, who was available? From what I'm aware, Arianne was seven at the time and the only known legitimate female Martell, while maybe Janna was available (Mina was already married to Paxter Redwyne since Horror and Slobber were born at that point). The "who was available" tends to come up as to why Lysa married Jon Arryn.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

As far as the Tyrells and Martells were concerned, who was available? From what I'm aware, Arianne was seven at the time and the only known legitimate female Martell, while maybe Janna was available (Mina was already married to Paxter Redwyne since Horror and Slobber were born at that point). The "who was available" tends to come up as to why Lysa married Jon Arryn.

Mace Tyrell feels like he has no end of cousins, plus two sisters. I have no idea if they were married at the time.

[sifth]

13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The thought of Stannis and Cersei being wedded to each other is overwhelming.

I get the feeling Renly would be more Cersei's type.............for obvious reasons.

[Alester Florent]

38 minutes ago, sifth said:

Mace Tyrell feels like he has no end of cousins, plus two sisters. I have no idea if they were married at the time.

Mace's sisters are probably too old to interest Robert, and his cousins too low down the pecking order. And Renly is too young for Cersei.

Marrying Cersei makes perfect sense in context, I think. The new regime needs to shore up support, it needs support from Tywin Lannister, Tywin has a hot daughter of eligible age who he's desperate to marry to the king... Why wouldn't you go for it?

Especially given the absence of other options. Sure, there are probably plenty of youngish women of the "second-tier" nobility, but why wouldn't you marry into a great house if the opportunity is there? 

The extent to which the Lannisters were in charge in King's Landing before Robert's death is easy to overestimate I think. They had influence, sure, but they weren't in control. The positions that Lannister placemen occupied were mostly minor ones: king's justice, Robert's squires. Pycelle is the exception, but nobody knew he was a Lannister stooge, possibly not even the Lannisters themselves. The majority of Lannister influence comes from Cersei herself in her position as queen, and that's a risk you take whichever bride you choose. 

[Craving Peaches]

Renly did nothing wrong.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Mace's sisters are probably too old to interest Robert, and his cousins too low down the pecking order. And Renly is too young for Cersei.

Marrying Cersei makes perfect sense in context, I think. The new regime needs to shore up support, it needs support from Tywin Lannister, Tywin has a hot daughter of eligible age who he's desperate to marry to the king... Why wouldn't you go for it?

Especially given the absence of other options. Sure, there are probably plenty of youngish women of the "second-tier" nobility, but why wouldn't you marry into a great house if the opportunity is there? 

The extent to which the Lannisters were in charge in King's Landing before Robert's death is easy to overestimate I think. They had influence, sure, but they weren't in control. The positions that Lannister placemen occupied were mostly minor ones: king's justice, Robert's squires. Pycelle is the exception, but nobody knew he was a Lannister stooge, possibly not even the Lannisters themselves. The majority of Lannister influence comes from Cersei herself in her position as queen, and that's a risk you take whichever bride you choose. 

Robert owes 3m to the Lannisters.  Those won’t be unsecured loans.  In all likelihood, vast royal estates have been taken as collateral.  That’s where their power will lie.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Mace's sisters are probably too old to interest Robert, and his cousins too low down the pecking order. And Renly is too young for Cersei.

Marrying Cersei makes perfect sense in context, I think. The new regime needs to shore up support, it needs support from Tywin Lannister, Tywin has a hot daughter of eligible age who he's desperate to marry to the king... Why wouldn't you go for it?

Especially given the absence of other options. Sure, there are probably plenty of youngish women of the "second-tier" nobility, but why wouldn't you marry into a great house if the opportunity is there? 

The extent to which the Lannisters were in charge in King's Landing before Robert's death is easy to overestimate I think. They had influence, sure, but they weren't in control. The positions that Lannister placemen occupied were mostly minor ones: king's justice, Robert's squires. Pycelle is the exception, but nobody knew he was a Lannister stooge, possibly not even the Lannisters themselves. The majority of Lannister influence comes from Cersei herself in her position as queen, and that's a risk you take whichever bride you choose. 

I don't know, Tywin only joining Robert when his victory was certain, makes his loyalty and motives suspect. Not to mention the insane level of collateral damange he caused when he took KL.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

I don't know, Tywin only joining Robert when his victory was certain, makes his loyalty and motives suspect. Not to mention the insane level of collateral damange he caused when he took KL.

No one cared about the dead smallfolk, but I bet the sack put a big dent in the royal finances.

[sifth]

Just now, SeanF said:

No one cared about the dead smallfolk, but I bet the sack put a big dent in the royal finances.

I mean, those are thousands of tax paying citizens that Tywin killed, lol

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean, those are thousands of tax paying citizens that Tywin killed, lol

I imagine the government derived a fortune, not just from taxes paid by the inhabitants, but rents from their houses, shops, workshops etc.  Probably foreign merchants were killed and plundered too, affecting customs.  And their governments likely demanded compensation.

Your point actually demonstrates why the violence towards the smallfolk in the books, is insane.  Medieval barons generally didn’t direct that much violence against the smallfolk, in inter-baronial conflicts, like the Wars of the Roses, because they knew who paid for the baronial lifestyle.

Where violence was off the scale was when fighting wars against heretics and infidels.  That’s the kind of violence we see in the books.

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Where violence was off the scale was when fighting wars against heretics and infidels.  That’s the kind of violence we see in the books.

I wonder when we would see "Kill them all, [insert divinity name] would recognize his/her own!"

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

I imagine the government derived a fortune, not just from taxes paid by the inhabitants, but rents from their houses, shops, workshops etc.  Probably foreign merchants were killed and plundered too, affecting customs.  And their governments likely demanded compensation.

Your point actually demonstrates why the violence towards the smallfolk in the books, is insane.  Medieval barons generally didn’t direct that much violence against the smallfolk, in inter-baronial conflicts, like the Wars of the Roses, because they knew who paid for the baronial lifestyle.

Where violence was off the scale was when fighting wars against heretics and infidels.  That’s the kind of violence we see in the books.

I think I've seen it said that the war as fought in the Riverlands is more like the Thirty Years War than a medieval war.

With that said, the Riverlands may be unusual in this respect, and it's explicitly Tywin's decision to "set the Riverlands afire", launching a campaign of terror presumably with the intention of exhausting the population and thereby undermining the Tullys' support, to punish them for their defiance, and because he is unable to achieve success through more conventional means. As a tactic, it bears resemblance to an unusually extensive chevauchée.

And "harrying" was a means used to punish regions even in one's own lands, albeit exceptionally. Details are sparse, but Harthacnut seems to have done it in Worcestershire at some point. William I famously laid waste the North as punishment for uprisings against him.

This type of conflict doesn't seem to spill much beyond the Riverlands. Robb raids cattle and the like in the Westerlands, but he doesn't seem to be leaving a trail of total destruction in his wake. Stannis targets only Storm's End and King's Landing, leaving the smallfolk alone. Even the ironborn, in their attack on the North, concentrate their attacks on castles and fortresses rather than spending too much time harrying the population (except on the Stony Shore). Winterfell is eventually sacked and burned by Ramsay, but that is in part a cover-up so that he can pin his own crimes on Theon without witnesses, and in part because Ramsay is just a psychopath.

Of course, even King's Landing wasn't Tywin's first rodeo. He has a reputation for extreme ruthlessness and carelessness over collateral damage. What we see in the Riverlands may be more just Tywin than a representation of Westerosi warfare in general.

[SeanF]

49 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think I've seen it said that the war as fought in the Riverlands is more like the Thirty Years War than a medieval war.

With that said, the Riverlands may be unusual in this respect, and it's explicitly Tywin's decision to "set the Riverlands afire", launching a campaign of terror presumably with the intention of exhausting the population and thereby undermining the Tullys' support, to punish them for their defiance, and because he is unable to achieve success through more conventional means. As a tactic, it bears resemblance to an unusually extensive chevauchée.

And "harrying" was a means used to punish regions even in one's own lands, albeit exceptionally. Details are sparse, but Harthacnut seems to have done it in Worcestershire at some point. William I famously laid waste the North as punishment for uprisings against him.

This type of conflict doesn't seem to spill much beyond the Riverlands. Robb raids cattle and the like in the Westerlands, but he doesn't seem to be leaving a trail of total destruction in his wake. Stannis targets only Storm's End and King's Landing, leaving the smallfolk alone. Even the ironborn, in their attack on the North, concentrate their attacks on castles and fortresses rather than spending too much time harrying the population (except on the Stony Shore). Winterfell is eventually sacked and burned by Ramsay, but that is in part a cover-up so that he can pin his own crimes on Theon without witnesses, and in part because Ramsay is just a psychopath.

Of course, even King's Landing wasn't Tywin's first rodeo. He has a reputation for extreme ruthlessness and carelessness over collateral damage. What we see in the Riverlands may be more just Tywin than a representation of Westerosi warfare in general.

The Northmen burned villages and raped, and hanged alleged collaborators, and Stannis’ men burned villages in the Kingswood. The Western raid involved “paying back in kind” what had taken place in the Riverlands.  Realistically, 6,000 men would do far less damage than 60,000 in the Riverlands, but it must have been grim to be in the path of Lord Karstark or Lady Mormont.   The Tyrells used starvation as a weapon.  While I think Tywin and his commanders were the worst, the rest also employed some ugly tactics.

IMHO, Ser Axell Florent was advocating what was normal, and as usual, Ser Davos was the angel on Stannis’ shoulder, by advocating against punishing Lord Celtigar’s people for their lord bending the knee.

[KingAerys_II]

There is a big difference between Tywin and Ramsay, Ramsay enjoys what he is doing, his cruelty has a no purpose, he is among the people that enjoy torture and rape, the same category of scum like Vargo Hoat, the Widow Lover, Belthasar Bolton and King Royce IV Bolton, the worst pieces of dogs*it that ever lived

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:19 AM, sifth said:

Robert should have sent Lurch and Gregor to The Wall; possibly Jamie too, but I can see Robert and Jon A, not wanting to do that, since it would anger Tywin. If Jamie explained Aerys plan to destroy the city, I can see grounds to pardon him. Maybe dismissing him from the Kingsguard, as a way to please Tywin. Robert marrying Cersei directly is a mistake, since Tywin came to his cause late. Maybe allow Stannis or Renly to marry her though, as a way to unite the families. Robert should have married a member of House Tyrell or Martell, to turn a former enemy into a friend and uniting a second powerful house to his cause.

I agree with most of this, but I don't think Stannis or Renly deserve Cersei and marrying one of his brothers might be seen as a reward. Also, Renly was about 6 or 7 at the time. He could have tried to arrange for Renly to marry Arianne though and Robert should have married Mace's sister or one of the Hightowers, which would make him Mace's brother-in-law, Wilas' uncle by marriage and his heir the cousin of the next Lord of the Reach.

 

  

18 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Mace's sisters are probably too old to interest Robert, and his cousins too low down the pecking order. And Renly is too young for Cersei.

Marrying Cersei makes perfect sense in context, I think. The new regime needs to shore up support, it needs support from Tywin Lannister, Tywin has a hot daughter of eligible age who he's desperate to marry to the king... Why wouldn't you go for it?

Especially given the absence of other options. Sure, there are probably plenty of youngish women of the "second-tier" nobility, but why wouldn't you marry into a great house if the opportunity is there? 

The extent to which the Lannisters were in charge in King's Landing before Robert's death is easy to overestimate I think. They had influence, sure, but they weren't in control. The positions that Lannister placemen occupied were mostly minor ones: king's justice, Robert's squires. Pycelle is the exception, but nobody knew he was a Lannister stooge, possibly not even the Lannisters themselves. The majority of Lannister influence comes from Cersei herself in her position as queen, and that's a risk you take whichever bride you choose. 

I disagree with you here. The Lannisters had sacked the city through treachery. They ignored the Rebellion until it was one and then went to Kings Landing professing friendship, only to Sack the City and murder the Royal family. Rape too in Gregor's case. Ned wasn't right about everything, but he was right to distrust the Lannisters and if the Baratheons had never got in bed with them, the Wot5K could have been avoided.

You're right that it's a risk you take, but it doesn't have to be with Cersei. Granted, I doubt most people knew what Cersei was like when Jon Arryn arranged it, but Tywin was clearly not a moral man. Ned's Lannister prejudice wasn't entirely unfounded.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I agree with most of this, but I don't think Stannis or Renly deserve Cersei and marrying one of his brothers might be seen as a reward. Also, Renly was about 6 or 7 at the time. He could have tried to arrange for Renly to marry Arianne though and Robert should have married Mace's sister or one of the Hightowers, which would make him Mace's brother-in-law, Wilas' uncle by marriage and his heir the cousin of the next Lord of the Reach.

 

  

I disagree with you here. The Lannisters had sacked the city through treachery. They ignored the Rebellion until it was one and then went to Kings Landing professing friendship, only to Sack the City and murder the Royal family. Rape too in Gregor's case. Ned wasn't right about everything, but he was right to distrust the Lannisters and if the Baratheons had never got in bed with them, the Wot5K could have been avoided.

You're right that it's a risk you take, but it doesn't have to be with Cersei. Granted, I doubt most people knew what Cersei was like when Jon Arryn arranged it, but Tywin was clearly not a moral man. Ned's Lannister prejudice wasn't entirely unfounded.

The problem then becomes, how do you keep Tywin in line? The guy is rich powerful and prideful. Maybe give him a small counsel position? 

[Lee-Sensei]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

The problem then becomes, how do you keep Tywin in line? The guy is rich powerful and prideful. Maybe give him a small counsel position? 

Nah. Robert was right to keep him out of the small council. Tywin has literally nowhere else to go. There are 9 great families (although you could arguably throw the Hightowers in there too).

The Starks, Baratheons, Arryns and Tullys are all united. The Targaryens are in exile and hate the Lannisters. The Martells hate the Lannisters too for obvious reasons. The Tyrells and Hightowers can be brought into the STAB alliance with a marriage to Robert. Lord Hightower has many daughters and one of them is the wife of Mace Tyrell. All that's left are the Greyjoys who supported Robert under Quellon. If Balon rebels again, he'll be crushed and take Theon hostage. Taking Theon hostage would have probably worked well enough in normal circumstances. He never even considered betraying Robb witihout the push from his father and Balon wouldn't have rebelled again while Robert was alive and the North was at full strength.

The Lannsiters don't have any options. Releasing Jaime from the kingsguard is more than enough. The Tyrells and Hightowers are almost as wealthy and have nearly twice as many men. All marrying Cersei gets you is the enmity of Dorne.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nah. Robert was right to keep him out of the small council. Tywin has literally nowhere else to go. There are 9 great families (although you could arguably throw the Hightowers in there too).

The Starks, Baratheons, Arryns and Tullys are all united. The Targaryens are in exile and hate the Lannisters. The Martells hate the Lannisters too for obvious reasons. The Tyrells and Hightowers can be brought into the STAB alliance with a marriage to Robert. Lord Hightower has many daughters and one of them is the wife of Mace Tyrell. All that's left are the Greyjoys who supported Robert under Quellon. If Balon rebels again, he'll be crushed and take Theon hostage. Taking Theon hostage would have probably worked well enough in normal circumstances. He never even considered betraying Robb witihout the push from his father and Balon wouldn't have rebelled again while Robert was alive and the North was at full strength.

The Lannsiters don't have any options. Releasing Jaime from the kingsguard is more than enough. The Tyrells and Hightowers are almost as wealthy and have nearly twice as many men. All marrying Cersei gets you is the enmity of Dorne.

 

When you put it like that, Tywin's actions sort of remind me of Balon's during the main series. You have a guy, who's fighting another kings enemies, before officially joining him, on the grounds that he hopes to be rewarded for it, even though he hasn't officially joined that king.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sifth

[Lee-Sensei]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

When you put it like that, Tywin's actions sort of remind me of Balon's during the main series. You have a guy, who's fighting another kings enemies, before officially joining him, on the grounds that he hopes to be rewarded for it, even though he hasn't officially joining that king.

They're exactly like Balon's. Robert never asked him to sack the city and kill off the Royal family. He just went and did it without getting any initial promises. Tywin was right not to reward Balon and Robert/Jon shouldn't have rewarded Tywin (even beyond the immorality of it). Ned was right and at least 50% of the problems in their later reign came out of getting in bed with the Lannisters. The Reach is just better.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Just because Penny is a dwarf like Tyrion doesn't mean Tyrion has to be attracted to her or like her.