[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[fionwe1987]

15 hours ago, Scott_N said:

I'm not a fan of characters being killed and then coming back to life. Such cop-out story telling and just takes away any jeopardy.

That's all fine as a regular guideline. It is a terrible rule for this world. The rules of this world are that everyone is reborn, when they die. The worst weapon a channeler has still doesn't prevent this rule from operating. 

Enter the Dark One, who can futz with the rule in this specific fashion: he can, only for souls that choose to bind themselves to him, hack into this mechanism and capture their departed souls, and force them into an already born body, replacing the memories and affect of that person, but the soul now inhabits and must make adjustments to the available host body. There are some rules to this process, but gender, race, or most observable physical traits of the host body are not factors into whether they are suitable. Their ability to channel, however, is.

Are these rules well used in the books? Not always. There are Forsaken who return via this mechanism, and that process serves as nothing but a temporary break for the author to not write about the plots of said Forsaken. Then they come back, and depending on the body they're put into, their return serves no other thematic or plot purpose except for that pause.

The show should definitely curtail those, but the basic mechanism is one of the fundamental pieces for the solution to the Dark One problem, so getting rid of it completely means replacing the format of the final conflict and its resolution.

On the other hand, physical invulnerability just isn't part of what any channeler gains, regardless of their stature with the Shadow or Light. They age more slowly. They They are resistant to more common diseases, but explicitly not to new infections they've never encountered. And this vulnerability of the Forsaken to physical hurt is, once again, part of a major showdown in the finale with emotional payoff.

All this makes sense. Everyone's body follows a template set by the Creator, and that template is vulnerable. The Dark One's power can fuse genetic elements from multiple species and create monstrosities like Trollocs and Myrdraal, but even they can die. Death and rebirth are inevitable parts of this world. And the idea that the source of evil and chaos would futz with that in a rules-based way... that is what the story says. And the failures in application of these rules are a whole lot less relevant, and solved by merely not killing the Forsaken in question, but removing the Dark One's ability to snatch souls bound to him, and making Forsaken physically invulnerable to swords, is a terrible solution that messes with the core mythology of the books that feeds into the logic of how the Dark One is locked back up.

15 hours ago, Scott_N said:

Another thing that bothers me a wee bit is that the powers the Aes Sedai have (and I suppose Rand/Forsaken) are too much. Way beyond superhero territory. How is this dealt with in the books? When a few people wield complete annihilation in their hands, the wider societal power dynamics are just off.

Channelers are well beyond superheroes, in some ways. An average Aes Sedai is "worth a thousand lances" in the books, and that holds across the series. Till RJ died, the military and social implications of this are well thought out, and the battles in the books, especially engagements with many channelers, or a few powerful channelers, engage with what it means to have this kind of power concentrated, on one or both sides of the conflict.

There are also sociopolitical reasons that such conflicts have been rare in the main continent where the action takes place. The Aes Sedai have, basically, unilaterally disarmed themselves in any fight without the Shadow. They have a loophole regarding personal safety, but in the books, 1000 years before this, when their entire island was besieged for decades, they refused to unleash their abilities on their political rival because the PR cost for that would be terrible, which itself is a consequence of the fact that just the male Aes Sedai going mad 3000 years ago resulted in mass continental drift, climate change, and destruction and instability at a global scale that lasted for 400 years and left everyone a refugee.

The structure of the books is very much predicated on most of our leads knowing that using their powers to find easy, but destructive, solutions, will have consequence, to themselves as well as the world. The show has been somewhat successful in engaging with this, and will have to get better as the story progresses, because there are going to be any number of situations where someone who could lay an army to waste in minutes (the power level at which the main characters will eventually operate), does not do so.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Except for this weird character assassination of Moiraine and Lan. Her pushing him away is just so incredibly dumb, even more so since she is now powerless and needs protection more than in the books. Yes, she wants him to be happy, but the fate of the world is at stake for Pete's sake, she would never prioritise like that! Ditto her behavior re: her sister. She is supposed to be good at manipulating people! And Lan meekly accepting it when he could not be compelled by magic in this situation? Oh, well.

Something like this does happen in the books, but it works because what Moiraine does is both darker and more practical. She's aware she can die anytime (after an attack that inspired the one in the show), so she makes arrangement to forcibly transfer Lan's bond, when she does die, to another Aes Sedai who has multiple Warders, including two who were bonded to Aes Sedai who died. This is to prevent Lan from riding straight into the Blight and giving up his life in a pointless attempt to avenge Malkier, which is all Lan thought he could do, before he met Moiriane. 

Lan is furious at this scheme, and it does affect their relationship. It is also illegal, and equivalent to rape, to bond someone without their will, and Moiraine and Myrelle (whose role is being taken up by Alanna here) were definitely doing something illegal with a goal to prevent the certain death of this guy. It is messed up, and it works out, but not in the way either of them plans.

All that is completely lost in the show, and the replacement plot is, so far, pretty aimless.

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Shohreh Aghdashloo cast as Elaida Sedai

 

I'm still hoping they cut Cadsuane out totally.

Note the video includes some plot leaks for season 3, specifically:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

The tower coup.

 

Huh. Interesting. I'd prefer her as Cadsuane, but I AM glad we'll have someone competent playing Elaida. She's a very Trumpy character, and her arc is all about taking power illegally and ignoring reality to continue to grow her power.

One thing that does worry me is that at some point, one of the core conflicts in the series will be between Madeline Madden and Shohreh Aghdashloo, and while I don't think she's an incapable actor, the plot so far hasn't really done much to build her up to be the person who'll take Elaida down. Hopefully, we will get that buildup done well.

[JGP]

10 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That's all fine as a regular guideline. It is a terrible rule for this world. The rules of this world are that everyone is reborn, when they die. The worst weapon a channeler has still doesn't prevent this rule from operating. 

 

Great informative post, Fin. Refreshed some of the rules for me. To the emphasized, can't Balefire do this? 

[Poobah]

2 minutes ago, JGP said:

Great informative post, Fin. Refreshed some of the rules for me. To the emphasized, can't Balefire do this? 

Balefire is a temporal weapon, it kills your target at an earlier point in time than when the Balefire hits them - it doesn't actually damage the soul or anything. The temporal effect prevents the Dark One from snagging the soul because it's gone and recycled already.

[Maltaran]

The problem with balefire, and the reason both sides stopped using it in the War of the Shadow, is that overuse leads to paradoxes and potential unraveling of the Pattern - because the retroactive nature means that anything a balefired person did in the seconds/minutes before their death is undone but people still remember it happening. After Rand BF’d Rahvin, Asmodean’s final chapter has him getting drunk because loads of people are saying to him that they were sure they’d seen his corpse, and he knows what that means.

[Corvinus85]

30 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Balefire is a temporal weapon, it kills your target at an earlier point in time than when the Balefire hits them - it doesn't actually damage the soul or anything. The temporal effect prevents the Dark One from snagging the soul because it's gone and recycled already.

I don't recall this being a thing (the recycling of the soul part). Balefire completely cuts away the Pattern thread that is a person, so I always thought it kills the soul, too.

[David Selig]

Jordan explained it when asked about balefire and souls:

Quote

If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul.

 

[Maia]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Something like this does happen in the books, but it works because what Moiraine does is both darker and more practical. She's aware she can die anytime (after an attack that inspired the one in the show), so she makes arrangement to forcibly transfer Lan's bond, when she does die, to another Aes Sedai who has multiple Warders, including two who were bonded to Aes Sedai who died.

I know what happened in the books - I read the series multiple times. But it was nothing like what happened in the show. Moiraine didn't want Lan to die pointlessly, yes, and she did want to give him a little happiness if she could, but saving the world always came first with her. And yes, she strayed into very problematic territory there, but OTOH she was right that it was the only way to save him.

They actually made Moiraine even more visibly driven in the show, but then, knowing full well what is at stake and being more powerless than she ever was in the early books, she drives her only protection away, making failure all the more likely? What is this ridiculous, sentimental nonsense?!

And, of course they'll probably make Anvaere's son be Barthanes and have Moiraine destroy her own family to prove how committed she is... which I am not against, mind you. I'd just like some character consistency.

BTW, was it ever explained anywhere, including authors quotes, why Moiraine's sisters and at least one of them having children has been suddenly introduced in "The New Spring" just not to be mentioned ever again?

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Jordan explained it when asked about balefire and souls:

 

Yes. The Dark One can grab a (relevant) soul as its body dies, but balefire kills the person in the past, and the DO can’t travel back in time. But the soul will still be reborn

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

On the other hand, physical invulnerability just isn't part of what any channeler gains, regardless of their stature with the Shadow or Light. They age more slowly. They They are resistant to more common diseases, but explicitly not to new infections they've never encountered. And this vulnerability of the Forsaken to physical hurt is, once again, part of a major showdown in the finale with emotional payoff.

[...]

Channelers are well beyond superheroes, in some ways. An average Aes Sedai is "worth a thousand lances" in the books, and that holds across the series. Till RJ died, the military and social implications of this are well thought out, and the battles in the books, especially engagements with many channelers, or a few powerful channelers, engage with what it means to have this kind of power concentrated, on one or both sides of the conflict.

There are also sociopolitical reasons that such conflicts have been rare in the main continent where the action takes place. The Aes Sedai have, basically, unilaterally disarmed themselves in any fight without the Shadow. They have a loophole regarding personal safety, but in the books, 1000 years before this, when their entire island was besieged for decades, they refused to unleash their abilities on their political rival because the PR cost for that would be terrible, which itself is a consequence of the fact that just the male Aes Sedai going mad 3000 years ago resulted in mass continental drift, climate change, and destruction and instability at a global scale that lasted for 400 years and left everyone a refugee.

About the physical invulnerability, while true in the books, in practice only one Forsaken ever fell (directly) to conventional means while  not coming back later anyway. Ishamael and Rahvin survived wounds that should have been more than lethal, especially in the former case (2 times) while not getting a new body (at that time).

In the show, Lanfear was shown using the True Power ('saa' in the eyes), which could be seen as Lanfear healing herself by immediate reaction and healing power stemming from the DO, or an instant resurrection if it was initiated by the DO himself instead of her. Either way, it works and makes the Forsaken more scary. It may still be possible to kill them by more powerful destruction (beheading or explosives/cannon, for example), on top of the well known channeling means.

Regarding the one power as a weapon, excellent points. This enormous power - powerful Aes Sedai and other channelers seem to have firepower equivalent to a small artillery battery - means that conventional forces in WOT are hopelessly outclassed and that in something like Sanderson's last battle, they would be mere cannonfodder. Given that massive battles are very expensive to film, I think the show should emphasises the power of the channelers and keep the most important fighting with the Shadow largely to channeling duels, with even Fades and Trollocs being mere nuisances compared to enemy channelers.

The actions of conventional forces are better suited to fights were for some reason, channelers on both or one side are holding back or absent. The kind of battles Mat tends to get into.

Large conventional battles as the endgame can better be scrapped in large part IMO, given that the real fight is elsewhere.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Wouter

[SpaceChampion]

Maybe we'll actually get to see Mat fight Couladin on screen instead of off-page.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, JGP said:

Great informative post, Fin. Refreshed some of the rules for me. To the emphasized, can't Balefire do this? 

Thanks! Balefire essentially seems to "reset" the Pattern, radiating out from the thread or threads the balefire touched, and the reset point is further back in time the stronger the balefire wielded. So the more people you kill with more power, the longer back in time their actions, and the consequences of those actions, penetrate, scarring the Pattern.

It is probably one of the best thought out time-travel devices in fantasy. Hopefully, the show won't change any of this just for the heck of it.

1 hour ago, Maia said:

I know what happened in the books - I read the series multiple times.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. I don't disagree with you at all. What the show does is confuse and weaken a brief but significant book plot point. The show actually expands the time spent on this plot, and manages to make it worse.

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

About the physical invulnerability, while true in the books, in practice only one Forsaken ever fell (directly) to conventional means while  not coming back later anyway. Ishamael and Rahvin survived wounds that should have been more than lethal, especially in the former case (2 times) while not getting a new body (at that time).

Survived, but they didn't insta-heal or anything.

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

In the show, Lanfear was shown using the True Power ('saa' in the eyes), which could be seen as Lanfear healing herself by immediate reaction and healing power stemming from the DO, or an instant resurrection if it was initiated by the DO himself instead of her. Either way, it works and makes the Forsaken more scary. It may still be possible to kill them by more powerful destruction (beheading or explosives/cannon, for example), on top of the well known channeling means.

The True Power is their best bet here, agreed, as its rules are a little flexible, and less defined. 

14 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Regarding the one power as a weapon, excellent points. This enormous power - powerful Aes Sedai and other channelers seem to have firepower equivalent to a small artillery battery - means that conventional forces in WOT are hopelessly outclassed and that in something like Sanderson's last battle, they would be mere cannonfodder. Given that massive battles are very expensive to film, I think the show should emphasises the power of the channelers and keep the most important fighting with the Shadow largely to channeling duels, with even Fades and Trollocs being mere nuisances compared to enemy channelers.

The actions of conventional forces are better suited to fights were for some reason, channelers on both or one side are holding back or absent. The kind of battles Mat tends to get into.

Large conventional battles as the endgame can better be scrapped in large part IMO, given that the real fight is elsewhere.

It isn't true that non-channelers are merely cannon fodder. For one, they actually invent cannons, which do hurt even the Forsaken. Beyond that, though, concentrating channeler power takes trust and time, but the few battles with heavy channeler and ground troop interactions that RJ were generally excellent and I hope some make it to screen, at least, including Cairhein, Dumai's Wells, something of the Altara campaigns, and all the White Tower stuff, of course.

They should very much not attempt to show all the needless battles in Memory of Light, and focus on the character interactions and moments this book inexplicably skipped. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Wouter]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Thanks! Balefire essentially seems to "reset" the Pattern, radiating out from the thread or threads the balefire touched, and the reset point is further back in time the stronger the balefire wielded. So the more people you kill with more power, the longer back in time their actions, and the consequences of those actions, penetrate, scarring the Pattern.

It is probably one of the best thought out time-travel devices in fantasy. Hopefully, the show won't change any of this just for the heck of it.

[...]

It isn't true that non-channelers are merely cannon fodder. For one, they actually invent cannons, which do hurt even the Forsaken. Beyond that, though, concentrating channeler power takes trust and time, but the few battles with heavy channeler and ground troop interactions that RJ were generally excellent and I hope some make it to screen, at least, including Cairhein, Dumai's Wells, something of the Altara campaigns, and all the White Tower stuff, of course.

 

Agreed on the balefire - a quite original concept and RJ had a good grasp of the circumstances of its use.

As for the cannons, those are too slow and unwieldy at first to surprise a channeler, especially if those have fast travelling options they way channelers had in the books (by the end). Though I suppose this is something the books could yet change, as only the waygates have been introduced so far. The fast travel would make it trivial to gather the necessary numbers of channelers, so not introducing it may actually improve the dramatic possibilities (kinda like removing the transporter from Star Trek would actually open up storytelling opportunities without the need to come up with excuses why it doesn't work, again).

Cannons could still be very useful in at least one particular storyline, though.

[fionwe1987]

Oh I hope they don't remove Traveling!

Yes, there are storytelling opportunities without Traveling. But those are the ones in the earlier books that are getting axed anyway. They probably should introduce it sooner, because functionally, that's what the show doing, hacking off most of the regular travel time. 

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Oh I hope they don't remove Traveling!

Yes, there are storytelling opportunities without Traveling. But those are the ones in the earlier books that are getting axed anyway. They probably should introduce it sooner, because functionally, that's what the show doing, hacking off most of the regular travel time. 

Travelling has its advantages for the plot (no need for the good old jet pack), but in the books at least, you can transport entire armies with it so maybe that aspect could be looked at. If you could only transport yourself (or a limited number of people standing very close), that would have different implications. Of course, the mechanism would have to be different then.

Then again, "being creative with doorways" had its charms in the books and the speculation around them.

[Poobah]

Regarding the power level of Channelers and its impact on warfare - Jordan was a Vietnam veteran and saw first hand some true horrors and the times that he shows the One Power being used in battle against actual people definitely reflect that experience and are amongst both the most graphic and the best pieces of writing he did in the entire series. I can't really think of any other fantasy series that made me feel the absolute horror of being a powerless footsoldier in a high magic setting, akin to going over the top in WW1 or storming the beaches of Normandy, running in to a barrage of grenades, automatic weapons and artillery fire with almost zero control over your own fate in the face of such deadly weapons. Obviously there's Dumai's Wells, but the battle in the middle of Path of Daggers where both sides end up completely broken also really stuck with me.

[karaddin]

Did Sanderson have them opening gates in front of canons to have them fire from safety? I remember a bunch of extra uses for gateways but not if that particular one was used. That's one potential way to keep them useful if the gateways can be opened by someone(s) that couldn't just use that same energy to directly lob a fireball themselves.

I get what you're saying about the thematic beats of resurrection fionwe, but I don't think that was sufficient to offset the damage it did to my sense of their threat in the books and I feel that would only be worse in a visual medium. It changed the Forsaken from these big scary figures into essentially playing whack-a-mole. Making them harder to kill should have the opposite impact. And I don't think it does the harm you're worrying about as long as it is simply "harder to kill" and not "impossible".

What we saw of Lanfear was a situation where if we could currently repair that tissue damage that fast and resuscitate her she'd still be alive, we just can't heal tissue damage like the power can. I'm assuming she's still out of action for long enough that Rand Moiraine get away which requires there to be recovery time on her end even after the healing brings her back to life immediately so it's not being indestructible.

It also still provides a justification for using balefire so I share the hope they're not going to mess with it.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Regarding the power level of Channelers and its impact on warfare - Jordan was a Vietnam veteran and saw first hand some true horrors and the times that he shows the One Power being used in battle against actual people definitely reflect that experience and are amongst both the most graphic and the best pieces of writing he did in the entire series. I can't really think of any other fantasy series that made me feel the absolute horror of being a powerless footsoldier in a high magic setting, akin to going over the top in WW1 or storming the beaches of Normandy, running in to a barrage of grenades, automatic weapons and artillery fire with almost zero control over your own fate in the face of such deadly weapons. Obviously there's Dumai's Wells, but the battle in the middle of Path of Daggers where both sides end up completely broken also really stuck with me.

Agreed. Also, I think RJ is one of the better fantasy writers when it comes to grappling with the scale of battles, and showing you a lot of intimate detail at the front as well as "birds eye" views that various characters come by using the Power.

31 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I get what you're saying about the thematic beats of resurrection fionwe, but I don't think that was sufficient to offset the damage it did to my sense of their threat in the books and I feel that would only be worse in a visual medium. It changed the Forsaken from these big scary figures into essentially playing whack-a-mole. Making them harder to kill should have the opposite impact. And I don't think it does the harm you're worrying about as long as it is simply "harder to kill" and not "impossible".

Again, I don't disagree that the way resurrection was used in the books for the villains was always well done. However, Granedal's, Ishamael's and Rand's resurrection are kind of central to the story, and I fail to see how the Rand's own can be tossed out in any reasonable way. And it makes no sense at all to have that without the rest of it.

The only solution that works, as far as I'm concerned, is to use it sparingly and well, not to take it out entirely. 

[karaddin]

I don't remember the last 3 books near as well as the earlier ones and apparently I don't remember Graendal having plot relevance from hers at all? The wiki just says her death and resurrection into a disfigured body was a punishment and doesn't list off anything after that - so I'm going to need a refresher on why hers is plot necessary if you wouldn't mind? (Not intended as snarky, apologies if it's coming across that way but I've just rewritten this 3 times and I keep worrying it does lol, in a weird head space)

Rand and Ishy I'll give you, although I think there may be other ways to accomplish the necessary parts with Ishy so I'll keep an open mind.

[Arakasi]

Spoiler

if you think that this series will end with Rand being in Ishy’s body I have a bridge to sell you. There is no need to get into any of the body swapping stuff, it just needs to end with everyone thinking Rand is dead and that can be done any number of ways.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Arakasi