[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, Wouter said:

Travelling has its advantages for the plot (no need for the good old jet pack), but in the books at least, you can transport entire armies with it so maybe that aspect could be looked at. If you could only transport yourself (or a limited number of people standing very close), that would have different implications. Of course, the mechanism would have to be different then.

Just limit the channelers who are strong enough to make a gateway. Keep that number small and keep them busy doing other stuff

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However, Granedal's, Ishamael's and Rand's resurrection are kind of central to the story, and I fail to see how the Rand's own can be tossed out in any reasonable way. And it makes no sense at all to have that without the rest of it.

I am not convinced any of those are essential. It can be written around.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

Considering Moridin basically did a lot of very bad things (duh he’s a forsaken) but also very bad things to woman (even if the women in question were evil forsaken) it would be very problematic to have your main character take the body of such a vile person. 

[Myrddin]

It depends on whether that person is widely identifiable. Rand's body stands out more (red hair, dragon tattoos, branded palms) than Moridin.

That anonymity is a gift post-Last Battle.  

[Arakasi]

49 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

It depends on whether that person is widely identifiable. Rand's body stands out more (red hair, dragon tattoos, branded palms) than Moridin.

That anonymity is a gift post-Last Battle.  

Sure but there are just ethical issues now that weren’t as prevalent twenty years ago in having these types of things be acceptable. Then again Jordan seemed to have a fetish with r*** and I would not be surprised if they just cut all that shit altogether. Anyway I just don’t think it would work in tv media to have your main character take the body of the main villain.

[Slurktan]

19 hours ago, Wouter said:

Agreed on the balefire - a quite original concept and RJ had a good grasp of the circumstances of its use.

As for the cannons, those are too slow and unwieldy at first to surprise a channeler, especially if those have fast travelling options they way channelers had in the books (by the end). Though I suppose this is something the books could yet change, as only the waygates have been introduced so far. The fast travel would make it trivial to gather the necessary numbers of channelers, so not introducing it may actually improve the dramatic possibilities (kinda like removing the transporter from Star Trek would actually open up storytelling opportunities without the need to come up with excuses why it doesn't work, again).

Cannons could still be very useful in at least one particular storyline, though.

Cannons firing through gateways would be incredibly effective against anything. Particularly (which they don't do in the books IIRC) using the z axis so firing down, or up.

[Slurktan]

4 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Sure but there are just ethical issues now that weren’t as prevalent twenty years ago in having these types of things be acceptable. Then again Jordan seemed to have a fetish with r*** and I would not be surprised if they just cut all that shit altogether. Anyway I just don’t think it would work in tv media to have your main character take the body of the main villain.

Why?  They aren't them. They didn't do the things that other person did.  (Also IIRC Shaidar Haran was doing the punishment to women.  Moridin was just a warden over the mindtraps.)

That however makes me think, are they going to keep Rand's inability to kill women?

[Poobah]

His relationship with Lanfear is definitely going to make it seem a lot more justifiable for him to struggle to attack her when the time comes.

[Arakasi]

Moridin was clearly giving orders to Shaidar so yeah I just don’t think that works. I am 100% sure they are just going to cut all plots like that. Sure give Rand his issue with women and have the plot with the damane but the rest of it can go.

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

His relationship with Lanfear is definitely going to make it seem a lot more justifiable for him to struggle to attack her when the time comes.

Yes, better than the way this was handled in the books.

What the show does make harder though, is to see a way where Rand could afford to be in a sorta/kinda alliance with Lanfear while also having Moiraine as a particularly trusted advisor. It's hard to see such a dynamic for parts of season 3 of the show, the way things stand at the end of episode 4. One could think of all the unsavory things book-Lanfear would be planning to do with Moiraine, the moment she is within reach.

[Slurktan]

4 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Moridin was clearly giving orders to Shaidar so yeah I just don’t think that works. I am 100% sure they are just going to cut all plots like that. Sure give Rand his issue with women and have the plot with the damane but the rest of it can go.

I dont recall moridin giving Shaidar orders but sure lol. Regardless Rand doesn't take shaidars body so your point is baffling.

I also don't think that will be in because I doubt the series will last that long. However if it does they will definitely include Shaidar Haran.

[karaddin]

I think the argument that Arakasi is making is that when you're working in a visual medium the way things look matters. Having your protagonist hero taking over the body of someone that's done a lot of horrible things to female characters is going to cause discomfort for a lot of viewers purely from the visual of it - that's a face associated with awful acts and now you're asking them to view it as the hero.

I personally don't think it's a moral component for Rand within the story, but I do think it's a fair concern on the meta level.

[Arakasi]

Yeah it’s just not going to happen. You’re not going to see any rape and you’re not going to see the main character take the villains body. Maybe with a different writing team or a different network or something but it’s just not happening here. Shaidar might or might not be a character but the scenes with the resurrected forsaken are 100% not going to happen. It’s just the realities of modern mainstream TV and keeping it friendly to viewers of all types.

Tbh I don’t think there is a great need to keep Shaidar. Sure he’s a scary boogeyman but his role is very much tied with keeping herd on the resurrected forsaken. Since that’s likely going to be different because they’re not going to recast main actors I can see him getting cut quite easily.

Edit: I’d rather they just focus on making the forsaken more intimidating and effective than waste screen time on bringing back has beens that never do anything post resurrection only to be killed again. They can barely give Mat or Perrin enough time you think they can give us a whole subplot of a weird myrdraal who runs around giving forsaken orders?

Edited September 13, 2023 by Arakasi

[karaddin]

Halima is the only one that actually feels important to me, but that ties into the whole gendered channeling thing that I'm still not sure how the show is going to address or avoid. It's hard to predict whether that plot line is even possible without knowing how they're going to treat that.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Halima is the only one that actually feels important to me, but that ties into the whole gendered channeling thing that I'm still not sure how the show is going to address or avoid. It's hard to predict whether that plot line is even possible without knowing how they're going to treat that.

See, Halima always felt like a dead end for me. More potential there than what we saw realized. Interesting idea to have eyes in Salidar, but what did she actually do? Am I forgetting something?

As far as the gendered channeling, my guess is they sidestep it altogether. No real need to address it and I am fine with the idea that while the soul is tied to the ability to channel (which I think is cannon), the ability to access it is tied to the physical body. Nyneave talks about seeing the cut with Logain and others, so it makes sense to me that it's a physical thing (as much as magic can be). Like cauterizing an artery.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Gertrude

[Maia]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:43 AM, fionwe1987 said:

Oh I hope they don't remove Traveling!

Travelling and to somewhat lesser degree Skimming (which is more difficult to use) should have been rare Talents and not something any channeler who is strong enough or has an *angreal ditto could do. This inflation of Travelling made most  of military strategies and the notions of "holding territory" into nonsense and required extremely contrived reasons for people to not use it when RJ needed for time to pass or to showcase conventional army  manoeuvres. Not to mention that if Travelling was so easily accessible, it could have never been forgotten during the Breaking, as it would have dramatically increased the chances of survival for those using it.  Even most of the Forsaken should have just had one of OP Travelling/Skimming, with maybe  TP Travelling as a cheat. Rand, of course should have had both as another mark of the Dragon being super-duper exceptional. IMHO, overuse of Travelling actively hurt the narrative after LoC.

 

On 9/12/2023 at 1:32 AM, Poobah said:

Regarding the power level of Channelers and its impact on warfare - Jordan was a Vietnam veteran and saw first hand some true horrors and the times that he shows the One Power being used in battle against actual people definitely reflect that experience

 

Indeed. But another problem post LoC was that he wanted to eat his cake and have it too.  He made channeling warfare, partcularly when employed by male channelers (because women don't have a head for military matters in his universe, unless they are Seanchan, for some reason), so overwhelmingly powerful that conventional forces felt obsolete, but he still wanted them and great generals leading them to be important. So more implausible WSoD-straining  contrivances followed.

 

16 hours ago, Myrddin said:

It depends on whether that person is widely identifiable. Rand's body stands out more (red hair, dragon tattoos, branded palms) than Moridin.

That anonymity is a gift post-Last Battle.  

This never worked for me, I must say. Moridin is still known to a lot of Darkfriends and has saa in his eyes + whatever effects channeling TP should have had on his body. I don't see why Rand couldn't have just re-made himself into somebody else in his moment of Transcedence. Or something mysterious could have done so.

 

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Halima is the only one that actually feels important to me, but that ties into the whole gendered channeling thing that I'm still not sure how the show is going to address or avoid. It's hard to predict whether that plot line is even possible without knowing how they're going to treat that.

This plot-line is more than disposable, as Halima didn't achieve anything more than slightly inconveniencing Egwene. The  idea that AS are wholly unable to detect the use of saidin in their midst however imprecisely (until a sudden discovery that gets conveniently forgotten  afterwards), when they are specifically wary of and concerned about Asha'man and male Forsaken is ridiculous. They should have had some method to detect residues of saidin to be able to hunt male channelers in the first place. Moiraine seemed to be able to do it in the first book. All part and parcel of everyone and their dog getting to kick the comically inept AS on the way up.  

BTW, yes, they have cannon shoot through gateways in AMoL, which is honestly the only way for cannon to be a danger to channelers beyond the intial advantage of surprise.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Maia

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As far as the gendered channeling, my guess is they sidestep it altogether. 

This is also my hope, just not sure they'll actually do it.

[Poobah]

5 hours ago, Maia said:

Indeed. But another problem post LoC was that he wanted to eat his cake and have it too.  He made channeling warfare, partcularly when employed by male channelers (because women don't have a head for military matters in his universe, unless they are Seanchan, for some reason), so overwhelmingly powerful that conventional forces felt obsolete, but he still wanted them and great generals leading them to be important. So more implausible WSoD-straining  contrivances followed.

I don't really agree. Artillery, tanks, fighter jets and even the atomic bomb didn't make infantry obsolete. Warfare evolved but ultimately you do still need boots on the ground.

Having a few hundred channelers is all well and good but it isn't enough to cover an entire continent, they get tired and moody after a few days in a row of hard channeling, mostly need line of sight to use their powers effectively, and die just as easily as anyone else and are going to be viewed as extremely high priority targets so they need to be protected. Plus the other side has channelers of their own too.

[Corvinus85]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

See, Halima always felt like a dead end for me. More potential there than what we saw realized. Interesting idea to have eyes in Salidar, but what did she actually do? Am I forgetting something?

As far as the gendered channeling, my guess is they sidestep it altogether. No real need to address it and I am fine with the idea that while the soul is tied to the ability to channel (which I think is cannon), the ability to access it is tied to the physical body. Nyneave talks about seeing the cut with Logain and others, so it makes sense to me that it's a physical thing (as much as magic can be). Like cauterizing an artery.

 

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

This is also my hope, just not sure they'll actually do it.

But they didn't fully sidestep it, right? Other than not quite labeling it. Men are still the ones who go mad when they channel. So is the show saying men go mad because of their bodies rather than their souls?

[SpaceChampion]

ep 5 clip: