[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[fionwe1987]

This was definitely the best episode of the show so far. They seem to be doing a far better job with the Forsaken and the Black Ajah, and that is what is holding the show together so far. They've done worse with all the main characters, and that's what's threatening to derail the show as a good adaptation, as well as from being a good show on its own.

On 9/14/2023 at 8:19 AM, IFR said:

Come on. Lan went from a Geralt type character

Lan is no such thing. RJ went to great lengths to show us what was the act, and what was underneath. I'm entirely fine with them laying the groundwork early. Just not the way they've done it. They've done a better job expanding Moiraine's story, and they should have done the same with Lan, except with Malkier, rather than what we get instead.

15 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I will start with Ishamael (and Fain)

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At first I was WTF when Suroth was giving him attitude despite knowing what he is. A different take from the book. Book Ishamael pretty much would have summoned a couple of Fades to deal with Suroth. But here he asserts his dominance with a quiet line. Interesting, and not bad. And he was more menacing with Lanfear.

I don't know why the show decided to have him influence the Seanchan, and now directly Turak, instead of Fain. This episode reinforces what I said previously about Fain - he is still just a Darkfriend and maybe only the dagger will corrupt him in time. Or they may have decided to greatly reduce Fain's role for the rest of the seasons, leave him a medium-level DF, give more of his stuff to Ishy, and the part with the wound on Rand is given to Mat as per Min's vision. I don't know that I like that. And speaking of...

Mat has been in this season little enough, now totally absent from an episode. Come on show, what are you doing?

No Mat is a bummer, but I can see where they're going with Ishamael, Mat and Fain. Ishamael thinks Mat has always been in his pocket. Fain, so far, seems to either be keeping his powers on the down low, and has not overtly betrayed Ishamael, yet.

That said, Ishamael was directing the Seanchan in the books, too. Just over dreams, rather than in person. We know that their arrival was part of his plan from the Darkfriend Social (in the books). 

15 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The girls and Liandrin - I am shocked that out of all the book characters, Liandrin has been made into such a sympathetic one. I'm OK with it. Plenty of time to get other Aes Sedai who are just psychos and power-hungry tyrants. Slightly disappointed in the writing for Nynaeve in this episode - are the writers afraid to allow her to give into anger more often? Granted, I believe Elayne was the one to act right away in the book, too, and it was fine to give her the chance to shine. Sadly to little of Egwene, but...

Its actually Nynaeve who acts, and she's so strong even Liandrin is taken by surprise and makes her escape in the chaos. Its a very different scene, though. No one was shielded or knocked out. Having Nynaeve actually struggle because of her block isn't the worst idea. She does fail to get pissed off enough to channel multiple times in the books, too, and this always blunts her effectiveness till book 7. She's too quick a learner, and too powerful, for her to be allowed to be too effective, this early.

15 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

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her leashing scene was quite good. I guess the "collars" don't look so bad after seeing the installation process, and they literally put a leash on her. And then they cut away. sigh

The Seanchan have also been somewhat nerfed, but for the most part I've liked them, especially the part with Turak and Suroth. 

Its acceptable, given what we were talking about armies and channelers. I doubt Bandar Eban and Tarabon will even make it to the show. I suspect Falme will take the place of all three.

15 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

And lastly, and certainly not the least at all, Verin. All I can say, well done show, Verin FTW. And nice to see Katie Leung (Cho Chang from Harry Potter) here. Given she is still using her Scottish accent, I assume her character is from Illian.

Yes! Well done with Verin. Her airheadedness never convinced the Two Rivers folk anyway, but her genuine kindness has even Mat not get suspicious enough of her. The readers also clearly got that she was the sharpest tool in the Light's (teehee) box, and that's the impression she gives in the show. Kindly, not overtly manipulative, but sharp. She leaves you wondering what exactly is going on, which is all one can ask for from a Verin portrayal.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Lanfear was appropriately scary. I was very taken aback at the ending of the last episode, but I do think they covered it and I am much more comfortable with this interpretation for the reasons we all talked about. They are mortal, just given great gifts from their master and one of them is that connection. Cool, I can buy that.

Agreed. She never really dies, and her recovery made it clear this was the True Power in action, and that she can be incapacitated.

Her anomosity towards Moiraine is also promising. On the whole, as a skeptic of this plot, I'd say they pulled it off. 

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for Traveling, Sure, she could get to Tar Valon quicker, but she couldn't track the horses that way and we see that being in TV would have done her no good. Her and Ishy's convo was good - I like how they introduced us into TAR. Can't wait for future scenes with more forsaken. So I'm pretty sure Stepin's statues showed 4 women, but I can forgive that if they decided to change things up at some point. I'm guessing the boys are Demandred, Asmodean, Samael and Rhavin. Could explain why we're seeing Caemlyn next season. (ok, I checked the statues here and the one people were thinking was a woman could be a man wearing a funky headdress (last photo). It does look vaguely feminine, but not enough that it matters.)

I do wonder if they'll sidestep the whole Aran'gar thing and just have one of the Forsaken be trans or non-binary? Have it be their choice, before they ever turned to the Dark, and all the ick is wiped out from the whole Halima thing. I think.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Moiraine dumping Rand into the middle of her family was kind of funny. He was just mildly confused the whole time. I do like that they brought in Moiraine's family and I think this is an interesting facet of Moiraine to see, and interesting for Rand to see as well. Barthanes seems like a right twat and something is going down at this wedding, right?

"Queen" Galldrian is killed in the books, and Barthanes is a Darkfriend. I have a feeling he will be in the show, too, and Anvaere might be merged with Colavaere, who betrays Rand later. I can see the seeds for that being laid here. If the chaos Rand and Moiraine bring includes the death of her son, Anvaere would have all the motivation she needs to work with Elaida against Rand in the future.

In general, the show seems to be working to give all the villainous characters deeper and well thought out motivation. I like that. I just wish it wasn't coming at the cost of developing Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Rand.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Where's Mat?!? I'm getting impatient with this. I don't know what I would cut, but come one - give us more Mat. I'm begging you. Elayne's Hermione energy just keeps going up. I get it, she's well educated, but they really are just giving her the all the exposition dialog, aren't they? I do like how we are seeing the beginnings of their dynamic - Nyneave expecting to be in control and Elayne calmly laying down the law and showing her why she's being stupid. I expect to see Egwene going through some shit next week. I hope they keep the tone of brutality combined with training a mischievous pet.

Yes, I could see the beginnings of a good team, here.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

I was speculating that it would be Perrin introducing us to TAR this season - I had totally neglected to take Lanfear into account. Stupid me.

 

I had assumed Egwene. Good call to introduce this from the Forsaken end. Aviendha will take Egwene to the Waste next season, I'm betting, to get her started on Dreamwalking. I have a feeling Egwene won't make it through the Accepted Rings, and will make the trek to Rhuidean instead. 

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

So we now have Ishamael, Lanfear, Moggy, Graendal hard confirmed and Asmodean soft confirmed along with 3 other boys (assuming the 8 number is solid, which I'm taking as given now we know 2 of the women are cut). The show seems to be playing up Lanfear and sadism so I think she's going to absorb some of Semirhage up to that critical climax in TGS. I think this makes it extremely likely the Moiraine and Lanfear confrontation and "deaths" are cut or drastically changed

I like this. Lanfear's costume at the end of the episode had Semirhage vibes, for sure. Having Lanfear take over her role makes sense. They could even have Lanfear die, as in the books, and be reincarnated as... Semirhage. The timing fits, and Semirhage was as powerful as Lanfear, wore black in reaction to Lanfear's light, and Rand's insistence on not torturing Semirhage makes a heck of a lot more sense if she's actually Lanfear.

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

That was a strong episode, covered a lot of ground, introduced a bunch of important characters (Barthanes, Turak, Aviendha), had some of the best channelling scenes to date (Lanfear just bopping the guy's head off instantly without any of the swirling lights for several seconds first we've seen from modern channellers). Some weird elements, like making Moiraine's sister such a big thing (but any excuse to see more of Lindsay Duncan, who damn doesn't look to have aged a day since Rome, almost twenty years ago), but not too bad.

It's not going to win any Emmies, or seriously challenge House of the Dragon, but it's become pretty solid.

Agreed, solid is the right word. And maybe potential to be more, if they keep making smart choices, and also refocus on the Two Rivers folk a bit.

[Gertrude]

47 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

"Queen" Galldrian is killed in the books, and Barthanes is a Darkfriend. I have a feeling he will be in the show, too, and Anvaere might be merged with Colavaere, who betrays Rand later. I can see the seeds for that being laid here. If the chaos Rand and Moiraine bring includes the death of her son, Anvaere would have all the motivation she needs to work with Elaida against Rand in the future.

Yeah, yeah. It's just that the party was mostly a cover to find the waygate. Nothing really happened at the party itself. We also know Thom is out this season so Galldrian needs an assassin. I'm just saying that this is looking to be more like a GoT wedding rather than just a stuffy old party. And as you said, Anvaere watching all her hard work go up in flames is a potent motivator if they decide to keep this character around. I am trying to decide if I think Anvaere is a darkfriend herself or not. I think it would be better if she were not, but could also see the reasons she might have thought it a good bargain (to raise her House name out of the mud).

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, yeah. It's just that the party was mostly a cover to find the waygate. Nothing really happened at the party itself. We also know Thom is out this season so Galldrian needs an assassin. I'm just saying that this is looking to be more like a GoT wedding rather than just a stuffy old party. And as you said, Anvaere watching all her hard work go up in flames is a potent motivator if they decide to keep this character around. I am trying to decide if I think Anvaere is a darkfriend herself or not. I think it would be better if she were not, but could also see the reasons she might have thought it a good bargain (to raise her House name out of the mud).

I'd like to think they'd make her not a Darkfriend, but maybe not buy that her son is, as well? Ishamael definitely plans some additional temptation for Moiraine, so it makes sense he's involved somehow.

I agree, this wedding seems to be the scene for whatever is going to go down before Rand somehow gets to Falme. The Blue/Black Wedding? It's also plausible the Amyrlin will be invited for the wedding, and that's where Rand will meet her. And if a civil war starts in Cairhein while Siuan was present, that would give ammo to her enemies, and hey, whaddya know, Verin brought up Tetsuan this episode.

[SpaceChampion]

They were calling it the Blue Wedding last night on the Dusty Wheel youtube live chat.  Not sure why blue in particular.

[Wouter]

Not quite sure about this possible merging of Lanfear and Semirhage, which are far more distinctive from one another than say, Demandred and Sammael and Rahvin. For the half alliance between Rand and Lanfear, that they still seem to be going for, it would be better if Lanfear is not overtly cruel (in the books, she at least claimed not to be and most of her cruelty came when she was in rage over Rand). Maybe he will convince her not to harm Moiraine, helped by Ishamael indicating he feels she could be useful.

A good idea though, to make use of conversations between Lanfear and Ishamael to show their plans. I liked it that Ishamael had put thought into what he did and didn't do to Moiraine.

Fain is probably still going to betray him: the Fade nailed to the wall or door in that village and his attitude in the cold open of the season (where he was the only DF willing or able to look up at the girl) points to that.

Moghedien was also name checked and said to be "insane", while she was the most level-headed Forsaken in the books (with the probably exception of Asmodean). Wonder where they are going with that.

That the Whitecloaks could defeat a relatively small, advance party of the Hailene isn't surprising. Bornhald the older did it in the books as well (even taking out a damane and suldan on at least one occasion), his group wasn't defeated till Turak gathered the mass of his damane against them at Falme.

Aviendha's introduction was nice, the actress is doing well, but it is a bit unfortunate that it is again a young woman shown to be wiping the floor with professional soldiers (who just defeated a Seanchan detachment and thus aren't incompetent by any means) who aren't even underestimating her (and Perrin). Sure, all the Aiel were super(wo)men at this stage of the books but this is going to draw criticism.

Interesting that Dain Bornhald was portrayed relatively sympatheticly. Will there be a child Byar or will Dain become Perrin's nemesis instead, perhaps spurned by what happened to his men in this fight?

Barthanes seemed nice enough. Big question now: is he actually a Darkfriend? Will he still be the one to tell Rand that Ishamael wants him to go to Falme? Lanfear is another obvious candidate for that, and she may even want Ishamael's plans to be thwarted.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Wouter

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

They were calling it the Blue Wedding last night on the Dusty Wheel youtube live chat.  Not sure why blue in particular.

Blue and gold are the Cairhienen colors, The show has run with blue being a typical Cairhienen color and it's reflected in a lot of costume choices.

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It's also plausible the Amyrlin will be invited for the wedding, and that's where Rand will meet her. And if a civil war starts in Cairhein while Siuan was present, that would give ammo to her enemies, and hey, whaddya know, Verin brought up Tetsuan this episode.

Yeah that's coming together nicely. And with Mat and Min scheduled to arrive just in time to get caught up with Rand as he leaves, possibly pulling his ass out of the fire. Seems reasonably likely that they'll also think they've thwarted Ishy's plan when (given he's got Mat on the way) them thinking that is part of the plan.

I saw some criticism of the scene with Ishy laying down close to Lanfear when she's disguised at Rand saying that it's queer baiting which is ridiculous. I thought that was a very efficient little scene showing us exactly how they view each other including that neither of them fear the other. I don't see any of the other Forsaken being quite so unconcerned about her, because even without the sadism she's a highly dangerous wildcard. She serves up Asmodean on a platter after all. But Ishy not being concerned entirely fits him.

[Slurktan]

So I really liked the episode. Some little bits:

- I don't think they'll use it or anything but I'm pretty sure there's the portal stone in the foreground when Moiraine and Rand come out of hiding when Lanfear rides past. Nice little nod.

- Was Laman Moiraine's Dad in the show?

- Kind of weird that Lanfear didn't directly kill the sacrificed woman who was with the horses (and left her dude to just die).  I mean it would fucking hurt but she could save herself.

- I loved Ishy's little coles notes on the five,

 

[Maia]

I am truly enjoying this season, minus Lan - Moiraine nonsense and whatever they are doing with him in general. Perrin needs to let loose soon, though. I never liked the boys becoming great at combat after a couple of lessons from Lan in the books, much less Mat doing so out of thin air in TDR, but at the speed the show is going and given Perrin's abilities, it would fit very well here. Well, maybe Avi's company will help him with this.

I  liked what they did with Dain being  somewhat decent for a  Whitecloak and the rest of villain interactions. They are really doing better work with the antagonists than RJ did - heresy, I know. Will we see Verin's mistake played out on screen, given the changes to her character? It looks that way. Also, it seems to me that Moiraine's sister is totally a Darkfriend, with her advice being what Ishy would want. Kinda odd how they are suddenly all wearing early 20-ieth century clothes which are at odds with the previously displayed Cahirienin fashions, but whatever.

@Slurktan:

Anvaere mentioned in an earlier episode that their uncle had ruined their family, so no, they are still Laman's nieces. It was mentioned in NS that Moiraine's et al. father had been a mild-mannered scholar, who was at odds with his siblings and that's what she seems to allude to here. Her older sisters were first introduced there too - she was the youngest child, just not to be mentioned anywhere else ever again. Though with Moiraine being so much older in the show, the circumstances of her getting involved in the search for the Dragon Reborn would have  to be adjusted.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Maia

[Poobah]

That was a really great episode, I love seeing Lanfear unleashed, and in general I agree that the work they're doing with all the villains in the show is top notch. Liandrin's development/arc has been very unexpected but not at all unwelcome, the actress is killing it and it's very nice to see how diverse Darkfriends and their motivations are (though ultimately it all comes down to selfishness) and how fractious they are as a result where in the books it does often seem like many of the darkfriends' motivations are either just some vague promise of power/immortality or literally nothing and they're just evil because. It's also nice to see those signs of regret that come with the realisation of what they've committed to which we get a bit of in the books but not in nearly so compelling ways. 

The scene between Ishamael and Lanfear was perfect, and it was nice to have some of the others namedropped. Definitely seems like Lanfear is merged with Semirhage - they played up her sadism this episode, and put her in that all-black domme outfit at the end there where book Lanfear would exclusively wear white and Semirhage black. 

Perrin is the weak link so far for me but Aviendha was great and I look forward to seeing more of her. I'm looking forward to seeing more Nynaeve-Elayne interactions next episode and seeing the full horror of Damane training through Egwene's eyes too; I expect Ryma to sacrifice herself to save some or all of the girls which will make it all the worse when we next see her as Pura.

It was a shame to get no Min / Mat this episode but I assume they're just traveling, and having them take an episode off is an economic way to show that it takes time to get places / give a sense of scale, which was one of my criticisms of the earlier episodes so I'll allow it. 

[Gaston de Foix]

13 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'd like to think they'd make her not a Darkfriend, but maybe not buy that her son is, as well? Ishamael definitely plans some additional temptation for Moiraine, so it makes sense he's involved somehow.

I think this is the most likely plot direction. 

It would be a shame though because it is more logically consistent that the woman who restored her family fortunes needed to turn to the Dark rather than her feckless son who reaped the benefit of her hard work.  

[Gaston de Foix]

20 hours ago, Arakasi said:

One thing just comparing this to Witcher is casting. Lanfears actress here would have made a much better Yennefer than what we got. Not that the Yennefer actress was bad but she was just too young. You need someone for these characters to be a more mature adult and I’m happy they didn’t make the Lanfear actress super young.

It's funny because I had exactly the opposite thought. 

I felt like the actress playing Lanfear brought the menace and subtlety but didn't really live up to the designation of the most beautiful woman in the world (tbh, that's an awesomely difficult thing to live up to), whereas Anya Chalotra is stunning. 

[Maltaran]

9 hours ago, Slurktan said:

 

- Kind of weird that Lanfear didn't directly kill the sacrificed woman who was with the horses (and left her dude to just die).  I mean it would fucking hurt but she could save herself.

 

 

The casual sadism there does give more evidence for the idea that she’s been merged with Semirhage

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I think this is the most likely plot direction. 

It would be a shame though because it is more logically consistent that the woman who restored her family fortunes needed to turn to the Dark rather than her feckless son who reaped the benefit of her hard work.  

Wait, are we saying the Dark is the more logical choice to get successful? 

[Arakasi]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

It's funny because I had exactly the opposite thought. 

I felt like the actress playing Lanfear brought the menace and subtlety but didn't really live up to the designation of the most beautiful woman in the world (tbh, that's an awesomely difficult thing to live up to), whereas Anya Chalotra is stunning. 

Anya is attractive sure but I don’t think she is stunning myself. But regardless of that she’s just too young for Yennefer who is supposed to be a mature sorceress. Of course I’m going off Witcher games and the couple books I have.

[SpaceChampion]

16 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Blue and gold are the Cairhienen colors, The show has run with blue being a typical Cairhienen color and it's reflected in a lot of costume choices.

Except we see from the party that Selene took Rand to, and met Anvaere, that they don't all wear blue and gold to everything, and formal affairs least so, it appears.

[Corvinus85]

I assume Rand will learn about what's happening in Falme from Lanfear during the TAR sequence. I also assume he'll be reunited with Mat in Cairhien. I hope we get a scene with Mat igniting the Illuminators' fireworks and blowing up some stuff. Maybe that's how the queen of Cairhien dies. (and Barthanes)

Edited September 16, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Werthead]

14 hours ago, Slurktan said:

- Kind of weird that Lanfear didn't directly kill the sacrificed woman who was with the horses (and left her dude to just die).  I mean it would fucking hurt but she could save herself.

She was also on the road to Tar Valon and could also probably work out what was done to her was done with the One Power, so she could also just ride as fast as possible for Tar Valon to get them to heal her with the One Power (if possible). 

[Wouter]

11 hours ago, Maia said:

I  liked what they did with Dain being  somewhat decent for a  Whitecloak and the rest of villain interactions. They are really doing better work with the antagonists than RJ did - heresy, I know. Will we see Verin's mistake played out on screen, given the changes to her character? It looks that way. Also, it seems to me that Moiraine's sister is totally a Darkfriend, with her advice being what Ishy would want. Kinda odd how they are suddenly all wearing early 20-ieth century clothes which are at odds with the previously displayed Cahirienin fashions, but whatever.

 

There are certainly aspects of the books that could use improvement, and villains is one of them. So far, the show is doing great on that front.

Regarding Verin, her dialogue about there being ways around oaths suggests she had already made her mistake.

Moiraine's sister being a darkfriend is very possible, given she had to turn her family's fortunes around and with her son being one in the books, but she did help Moiraine find 'Selene' and Rand. If so, she may have gone against the interests of the Shadow and get punished soon. Unless she is being steered by Ishamael and he is undermining her to some degree, perhaps fearing her to get too much influence on Rand too quickly (as he may guess she could go for the "we could supplant the DO/Creator/Naeblis etc" spiel).

Selene also seemed to wear clothing more appropriate for the early 20th century in her Kinslayer's Dagger scenes with Rand.

10 hours ago, Poobah said:

The scene between Ishamael and Lanfear was perfect, and it was nice to have some of the others namedropped. Definitely seems like Lanfear is merged with Semirhage - they played up her sadism this episode, and put her in that all-black domme outfit at the end there where book Lanfear would exclusively wear white and Semirhage black.

9 hours ago, Maltaran said:

The casual sadism there does give more evidence for the idea that she’s been merged with Semirhage

I don't think we can be certain there is a merge, yet. Semirhage isn't exactly casually sadistic - she likes to torture (not casually, but with dedication) people she considers unworthy. What show-Lanfear is said to be, and demonstrated to some extent in this episode, is still something else: indeed casual cruelty. And most forsaken would probably have killed the male rider, to take his horse, though what she did with the woman was extraordinarily cruel. But still not a particularly Semirhage thing to do.

One of Stepin's little statues did seem quite clearly to represent Semirhage, so she may yet be in. Lanfear may have just declined to name her, as (in the books at least) they hate each other. In meta terms, it may be that they have no plans to introduce Semirhage yet, if she comes with Tuon like in the books. And while Ishamael is already very much involved with the Seanchan, he had been meddling for years with them in the books, too, and his advisory role (in the show) with them was taken by Padan Fain in the books. There could certainly be room for Semirhage at a later stage.

For reference, here is the link to a composite picture of the statues: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fn7v8asmj2j381.jpg%3Fwidth%3D2520%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd5347bc2135c8e3446136c03473c85c8e4699185

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Wait, are we saying the Dark is the more logical choice to get successful? 

It certainly can be, having a darkfriend king or queen can certainly be useful and a few assasinations - that may not be tied to Damodred if other darkfriends do it on their behalf - at the right time can do wonders. Ultimately they will regret it of course, but to rise from fallen house to royal house, why not?

Edited September 16, 2023 by Wouter

[Gaston de Foix]

8 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Wait, are we saying the Dark is the more logical choice to get successful? 

Why do you think it isn't in the show universe?