Characters who suffered but for who you have no sympathy

[Alester Florent]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:46 AM, Odej said:

Ok, that's probably controversial: Maester Aemon.

I think the all the excuses he gives to stay way from power aren't a sign of a honorable heart, but of someone running away from responsibility. He defends the throne belongs to Aegon, his little brother. Really? A guy who spent most of his life wandering around Westeros with a hedge knight and who had little contact with the political game would be a better king that Aemon, a highly capable maester?

 

By the time Maekar died, Aegon was 33 and married with children. He spent a few years wandering with Dunk but those were long past and hardly "most of his life". He had probably lived at court for his father's whole reign and surely knew the realm's key players and the realities on the ground better than Aemon in his ivory tower. 

Aemon's advice remains somewhat mysterious, but I would assume he's simply telling Aegon he needs to be less idealistic, and more ruthless... perhaps in circumstances where Aegon is trying to persuade Aemon not to take the Black, or is deciding Bloodraven's fate. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

By the time Maekar died, Aegon was 33 and married with children. He spent a few years wandering with Dunk but those were long past and hardly "most of his life". He had probably lived at court for his father's whole reign and surely knew the realm's key players and the realities on the ground better than Aemon in his ivory tower. 

Aemon's advice remains somewhat mysterious, but I would assume he's simply telling Aegon he needs to be less idealistic, and more ruthless... perhaps in circumstances where Aegon is trying to persuade Aemon not to take the Black, or is deciding Bloodraven's fate. 

I agree. As to Aegon having spent so much - or not - time wandering around Westeros as Dunk’s squire, I vehemently disagree w/ @Odej. I think those formative years spent getting to know the smallfolk and their many hardships gives him a unique education that no other king had ever had. And we see the result: Aegon is determined to bring changes that would improve the lives of those on the bottom of the pole. Yes, he didn’t succeed, but he at least tried, which is more than can be said for any other ruler. Change is not easy, it’s not quick; it’s a process. 
 

I don’t think there’s a hidden meaning in the “kill the boy” line, I think it’s basically Aemon telling Aegon that he has to be more pragmatic and less idealistic - not something I necessarily agree with by the way.

 

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon V made some laws for the smallfolk that  Tywin wiped out as Hand of the King. Jaeherys and Alysanne were able to establish reforms thanks to the dragons and the fear of the dragons the lords had because of Maegor. 

That's why Aegon V was obsessed to hatch Dragon eggs he was afraid of rebellions

[Odej]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. As to Aegon having spent so much - or not - time wandering around Westeros as Dunk’s squire, I vehemently disagree w/ @Odej. I think those formative years spent getting to know the smallfolk and their many hardships gives him a unique education that no other king had ever had. And we see the result: Aegon is determined to bring changes that would improve the lives of those on the bottom of the pole. Yes, he didn’t succeed, but he at least tried, which is more than can be said for any other ruler. Change is not easy, it’s not quick; it’s a process. 
 

I don’t think there’s a hidden meaning in the “kill the boy” line, I think it’s basically Aemon telling Aegon that he has to be more pragmatic and less idealistic - not something I necessarily agree with by the way.

 

I don't think the fact that Aegon spent time with common people is a bad thing in itself. As was said, thanks to this he had sympathy for the needs of the people, my point is the biggest source of support for the king comes from the nobility and Aegon was not that tactful with the nobles. In fact many lords considered him half a peasant. His attempts to marry his children into large houses was not only a way to escape incest but also to gain supporters for the reforms he would like to promote for the commom people and who were frowned upon by other lords.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Odej

[Moiraine Sedai]

I don’t like Brandon Stark. He died relatively fast so he didn’t suffer. Not much. The strangulation thing didn’t prolong the agony too much. I don’t feel sorry for the lout. He was a threat to the Targaryen family.  

[Lee-Sensei]

24 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don’t like Brandon Stark. He died relatively fast so he didn’t suffer. Not much. The strangulation thing didn’t prolong the agony too much. I don’t feel sorry for the lout. He was a threat to the Targaryen family.  

Lol. His brother helped finish the job though. Him and the usurpers dogs.

[Craving Peaches]

32 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don’t like Brandon Stark. He died relatively fast so he didn’t suffer. Not much. The strangulation thing didn’t prolong the agony too much. I don’t feel sorry for the lout. He was a threat to the Targaryen family.  

I don't like Rhaegar Targaryen. He died relatively fast so he didn't suffer. Not much. The hammer-to-the-chest thing didn't prolong the agony too much. I don't feel sorry for the lout. He was a threat to the Baratheon family.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:27 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What are some characters you know suffered some bad if outright horrible things in their past, but for who you have no sympathy due to how horrible they are as persons or because they did things that their past and trauma doesn't justify or excuse ? 

I have 0 sympathy for Cersei who has been a rotten apple since her childhood, with her abuse of Tyrion from his birth, her cruelty as a child and her murder of her friend. 

I have also very little if any sympathy for Lysa Arryn. While what happened to her was surely terrible and traumatic, her rape Petyr at least twice prevent me from pitying or feeling sympathy for her, as does the fact that she betrayed her sister, brother and nephews/nieces and abused and tried to murder Sansa out of petty jealousy. 

Same for Petyr/Littlefinger for obvious reasons. 

I also don't feel any pity or sympathy for Allister Thorne, who was sent to the Wall by Tywin, but is a bully who abuses the Night's Watch recruits while being a terrible teacher (it's telling that they did far more progress far faster with Jon than with him) while pettily antagonizing and mocking Jon about his father despite Jon having nothing to do with what happened to him, and Ned being the wrong person to blame for his situation.

Same for most Greyjoys and Ironborn, who bring what fall on them all by themselves. 

Alliser Thorne is a great point. I certainly feel 0 sympathy/empathy for him at all. He just seems cruel, and he doesn't actually suffer all that much compared to other characters. Yeah, I feel nothing for him. 

Stannis Baratheon - Born rich and spoiled entitled, acts rich and spoiled and entitled...is rich and spoiled end entitled. He is literally a King, acting like...he is the kid bullied in the background. He is burning people for worshipping the "wrong gods" (which were his gods like yesterday), and he is like, "No one is suffering as much as me!" (in the background you can here Lord Sunglass and his suns screaming in pain). "Be quiet, Sunglass, I am telling Davos about how much I suffered because everyone liked Robert more than me!" 

Petyr Baelish - He is...maybe a sociopath, or at least the closest we have in the books in my opinion (ala a recent topic).  I find none of his "slights" all that compelling as reasons behind the horrible things he does. 

Jorah Mormont - First off, I do not dislike Ser Jorah. I like him even at times. However, his back story, which he acts like is so tragic..is like...not that bad honestly. He just had a bad romance, and honestly...he chose to love someone where that...was inevitable. I have no empathy for his back story, and think he needs to learn to be realistic in his love interests, lol. 

Ramsay Bolton - I don't know. He is horrible. I can't feel empathy because he is horrible. What could possibly be known about his childhood which would make any of his actions in the present ......understandable. He is just cruel, and likes hurting others. I hate him, lol. 

Euron Greyjoy - Like...same as Ramsay, but even moreso. Maybe I could feel a second of empathy for Ramsay, I find it hard to believe I could even feel a second of empathy for Euron. He is horrible. 

Characters I do have empathy for, but it is easy to forget that empathy when they speak below

Lysa Arryn - This one is hard. I do have empathy for her. However, then the things she does are horrible. Like, I feel empathy/sympathy for losing her baby. That is horrible. Being forced into a marriage when you love someone else is also horrible. However...then the things she does in teh book....I don't know. She has a LOT of power. Like it kind of goes unnoticed because she doesn't do much with it, literally up to her death. But she is arguably, like...top 10 most powerful people in Westeros. And much like her love, Petyr, she acts like...she is some eternal victim becuase of things that happened 20 years ago. She literally gets everything she wants in the books, and she keeps acting horrible. 

Aeron Greyjoy - Much like Lysa, his background is awful. Well actually worse. Unless I am reading it wrong, he was raped, and often, by his older brother. His other brother, who was his best friend, and he found comradery with, and perhaps the will to live/survive with, died. Like, holy crap. That is horrible. But then in present day...he is so horrible. He says horrible things, he is...cold and unloving/unlovable. He supports horrible actions and his religion...even for a religion, is perhaps the most horrible religion I've ever heard of (at least in practice in the books). Also, I just...dislike him. Like, this is a gut feeling. Like, if all these characters were at a party and I was there, Aeron Greyjoy is the guy I would least enjoy speaking to. Maybe that is petty, I don't know. 

Arya Stark - Okay, I know this one is going to be controversial, but first off - Arya has already murdered people who didn't deserve to be murdered. I have a feeling she might murder...more people who don't deserve it as the books go on. For the obsession with Daenerys (or even Jon)'s potential dark turn...Arya already had it. Now second off, like I said for Ser Jorah Mormant...I like Arya. Which complicates things, but it doesn't stop me from...feeling disappointed as she becomes...less and less caring for human life. Now...we actually OBSERVED her horrible back story. And that's why she is here in the ...controversial area. I do feel empathy. I followed her story and felt a lot of empathy for her...and even from as early as ACoK..I remember feeling like she is quick to vengeance/anger/retribution. Honestly...what she is been through....her lack of power/agency, and wanting to take back that power/agency...I can understand and empathize with that...and yet she goes too far. She makes decisions that are unnecessary. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't like Rhaegar Targaryen. He died relatively fast so he didn't suffer. Not much. The hammer-to-the-chest thing didn't prolong the agony too much. I don't feel sorry for the lout. He was a threat to the Baratheon family.

I'll keep the chain going. I don't like Eddard Stark. He died too fast. He refused to join forces with the God's own Chosen King, King Renly Baratheon I. Eddard's lack of support for Renly deserves endless agony and pain for the rest of his life 

Spoiler

This made me feel pain. I absolutely love Eddard. But I wanted to keep the chain going. Also, I am dangerously close to a Renly-stan at this point. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I'll keep the chain going. I don't like Eddard Stark. He died too fast. He refused to join forces with the God's own Chosen King, King Renly Baratheon I. Eddard's lack of support for Renly deserves endless agony and pain for the rest of his life 

  Reveal hidden contents

This made me feel pain. I absolutely love Eddard. But I wanted to keep the chain going. Also, I am dangerously close to a Renly-stan at this point. 

 

Well said. I find Eddard's lack of faith (both in King Renly and the True Gods of Westeros, the Seven-Who-Are-One) disturbing.

Spoiler

Join us! 

[SaffronLady]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

True Gods of Westeros, the Seven-Who-Are-One

What do the Seven do, really? They don't create skinchangers, they don't create prophets, they don't create dragonriders. Most useless religion in Westeros in terms of magic.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

What do the Seven do, really? They don't create skinchangers, they don't create prophets, they don't create dragonriders. Most useless religion in Westeros in terms of magic.

Actually, 2 people (Catelyn and Arianne) have their prayers answered, Davos sees the Mother. There was also the incident where one of the dragons in the Dragonpit was beheaded by a supernatural entity. And that there is no magic like the others is probably a good thing because it means no human sacrifice. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

What do the Seven do, really? They don't create skinchangers, they don't create prophets, they don't create dragonriders. Most useless religion in Westeros in terms of magic.

Honestly, that makes them better. R’hollar and The Old Gods basically make monsters. Please a religion that is all fluff. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, that makes them better. R’hollar and The Old Gods basically make monsters. Please a religion that is all fluff. 

Faith is best Faith. Brings people together and no human sacrifice.

[SaffronLady]

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was also the incident where one of the dragons in the Dragonpit was beheaded by a supernatural entity.

You mean the guy who hacked the neck of a young dragon seven times while shouting out to all seven faces finally succeeding when he shouted the seventh time?

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

And that there is no magic like the others is probably a good thing because it means no human sacrifice. 

In a world that magic does exist, gods that actually do something are better than gods who let their followers die under ice and snow while existing only on paper.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

You mean the guy who hacked the neck of a young dragon seven times while shouting out to all seven faces finally succeeding when he shouted the seventh time?

In a world that magic does exist, gods that actually do something are better than gods who let their followers die under ice and snow while existing only on paper.

To be fair we don’t know if any of the religions in this series have magic that is their god’s answering prayers or if the religions themselves just stumbled upon Valyrian magic and are treating it as a sign from their higher powers. I hope we never get an answer to this. 

 

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

To be fair we don’t know if any of the religions in this series have magic that is their god’s answering prayers or if the religions themselves just stumbled upon Valyrian magic and are treating it as a sign from their higher powers. I hope we never get an answer to this. 

 

GRRM already said he won't give any answers to these questions, so you'll be good then.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually, 2 people (Catelyn and Arianne) have their prayers answered, Davos sees the Mother. There was also the incident where one of the dragons in the Dragonpit was beheaded by a supernatural entity. And that there is no magic like the others is probably a good thing because it means no human sacrifice. 

And at least one of Sansa's prayers are answered.

Quote

"He is no true knight, but he saved me all the same," she told the Mother. "Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him." -ACoK Sansa V

 

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:30 AM, Odej said:

Barbrey Dustin. Do I understand the reasons why she hates the Starks? Yes. Do I want Manderly and Stannis to display her head on the walls of Winterfell alongside the Boltons and Freys? YES.

I don't trust her AT ALL!!! Having said that, Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, and Tywin obviously deserved some just desserts. Who knows what the three of them may have gone through in their childhoods that we know nothing about? Either that or they were just born bad. Mad Aerys too! 

Edited September 30, 2023 by KingMaekarWasHere

[Jaenara Belarys]

It's always annoying when Stannis complains. 

He runs off to Dragonstone while Robert is still alive (probably to lessen the risk of being poisoned, that's logical), but he doesn't send a raven or a couple lords bearing a message talking about his incest theory. 

He says that everyone else worships the wrong gods, is stiff and unlike-able to everyone and has a singular daughter for an heir (which is no problem for us in the forum IRL, but it's very much so a problem in the world where they had a civil war about a queen succeeding). After all that, he expects everyone to simply pony up behind him? No one likes or wants you, man.  

Edited September 30, 2023 by Jaenara Belarys