Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[Arakasi]

I think it’s a big thing just to know your audience. Mats show very much skews positive. He brings on people who like the show. They might not like all the show but they say more positive than negative. Mat himself swings very positive in his interpretations. Then you had the regular reaction and review last week which was very positive. So what were viewers expecting here?
 

Probably for him to come in and be at worst a 50/50 on critiques/praises with maybe throwing nuggets of insider details. But since the episode was so well received everywhere maybe they were  even expecting more positive than negative. Instead they got a couple compliments sandwiched around 70 minute of dunking on the show and talking over the host. No wonder they don’t like him he killed their buzz.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

In the books the Dark One wishes to

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Destroy the wheel/the pattern/reality and remake it in his image. Ishamael has knowledge of his prior lives and merely wants to end the endless cycle of suffering that he experiences, so is everyone on board with the dark one destroying everything including him. This is what that conversation between him and Lanfear earlier in the season was getting at. The DO only talks to him because he's the only true believer.

Each of the other Forsaken have their own reason for turning, Lanfears is as per the show. Another one wanted to be a rock star (actually a famous harpist but rock star sounds slightly more relatable) and apparently just didn't have "it" on his own, so it's deal with the devil style. Several of the men just had massive inferiority complexes with Lews Therin who I don't think thought about them much at all. 

So watch and find out for what the show gives them, but suffice to say aside from Ishamael and Lanfear they're pretty short sighted with the whole thing, and Lanfear just follows her own agenda with no actual loyalty.

 

Got it , so when you say remake it in his own image he wants it to be a world full of evil and pain and suffering ? Any reason why he’s so evil or is that simply in his nature , like the dark side ?

I guess Ishy is not wholly evil as he’s just trying to end the constant cycles, so if he succeeds in breaking the wheel , that means karma will no longer be a thing in this universe right ? Or does breaking the wheel means destroying this universe permanently as well? I’m not sure if wheel is analogue to universe/time

Edited October 13, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[Gaston de Foix]

7 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Got it , so when you say remake it in his own image he wants it to be a world full of evil and pain and suffering ? Any reason why he’s so evil or is that simply in his nature , like the dark side ?

I guess Ishy is not wholly evil as he’s just trying to end the constant cycles, so if he succeeds in breaking the wheel , that means karma will no longer be a thing in this universe right ? Or does breaking the wheel means destroying this universe permanently as well? I’m not sure if wheel is analogue to universe/time

What Karaddin said.  The true nature of the DO and what he wants to do to the world is very much a major plot-point in the books, and the distinction between an immoral world, an amoral world, or ending the world is a subject of considerable and deliberate  ambiguity. 

Ishy is not written to be evil so much as a nihilist.  He sees no solution to the problem of evil apart from the triumph of evil and therefore wants to facilitate that triumph which he believes will be universe-ending. 

Lanfear's motives are mysterious and maybe not understandable even to herself but I comprehend her character her to be jointly obsessed with Lews Therin and power (with power predominating).  

Frankly, I think there are too many forsaken who joined the DO simply because "Lews Therin was better".  One character like Demandred would have been cool.  

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Got it , so when you say remake it in his own image he wants it to be a world full of evil and pain and suffering ? Any reason why he’s so evil or is that simply in his nature , like the dark side ?

I guess Ishy is not wholly evil as he’s just trying to end the constant cycles, so if he succeeds in breaking the wheel , that means karma will no longer be a thing in this universe right ? Or does breaking the wheel means destroying this universe permanently as well? I’m not sure if wheel is analogue to universe/time

It always felt a little confused to me, due to it being a bit of a blend of different creator/evil figure pairs from human cultures. The dark one has strong chaos or destruction vibes to me as you'd see in order/chaos or creation/destruction deity pairs, so it really feels like it should just want to destroy everything and that would be the end of that - but it's got this "remake things in it's own image" tacked on the end.

Also it's not really existing in conflict with the Creator half of the equation if I'm remembering right. The Creator set up the wheel and the pattern (just thinking of them as reality and time is close enough) and set them spinning, then noticed the dark one was tangled up amongst it as well and sealed it away so it couldn't fuck everything up, then the creator peaces out and isn't around anymore - it's just the wheel cycling through the ages doing it's own thing.

At some point humanity fucks up and sticks a hole in the prison, the dark one tries to ruin everything and is eventually sealed off again and around and around the cycle of ages turns and repeats. And I mean properly sealed, the patch job Lews Therin did in the history of the cycle depicted in the story didn't do that. I won't spoil any more on that front as the circumstances of how the hole gets poked are plot relevant and I'd expect they're covered in the show - possibly in the next season.

To circle back to the DO - unlike a primordial chaos or destruction entity it is actually evil rather than just being a force of nature. It always felt more... utilitarian evil rather than truly savouring it in the books, but maybe that's just my confusion in trying to merge the two aspects together. That's a lot of words to say I still have no idea what "in it's image" would look like.

[IFR]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

I feel a lot of sympathy for Sanderson, for some reason...

I take it you were consulted for Game of Thrones?

To be fair, the show descended into nonsense in the later seasons, but it could have been much worse in the early seasons with different showrunners. Imagine having these kind of conversations.

"Rafe, I appreciate your artistic vision, but do you really think in the Battle of Blackwater it's a good idea to have Cersei do an anime scream, then defeat Stannis Baratheon in a slow motion sword fight?"

Or

"Are we sure it's a good idea for Jon Snow to be injured and knocked to the side so that Gilly picks up Longclaw and disarms a Whitewalker in battle and then kills it?"

Or

"Wait, why is Shae effortlessly manipulating Littlefinger and Varys as the true power behind the throne?"

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Character wise the scene did help Mat put him on the path to where he'll get all those old memories. So I still think the blowing of the Horn was needed just for that. 

It did with the way they wrote his arc. I think we could have gotten there a different way if they cut the blowing of the Horn here. All he needed to do was step up and be a hero and have others acknowledge it. My fear is that a part of Mat that I greatly enjoyed will not be present going forward. I would love it if his memories fade with the Heroes and just a few scattered fragments remain until he meets the Finn. I'm no Bloody Hero. I would hate to lose that just because Mat gets his moment here, like this.

[Gaston de Foix]

So I've watched some but not all of the Sanderson view of the last episode, but it seems like he gives away a pretty significant spoiler.  It seems like the spear with the dagger is actually Mat's Ashandarei.  Sanderson qualifies it by saying as far as he knows, but since he has seen the script, it is almost certainly described that way in the script. 

Disappointing news if true.  The logical implication is the Tower of Ghenjei and the Eelfin/Aelfin have been cut.  

[Arakasi]

Well his staff there does have ravens on it which seems to indicate that. I don’t know if it’s been cut entirely because he does need to get the foxhead medallion from somewhere but it’s also a weird scene that only matters three times. Once at the beginning of TSR, once at the Cairhein battle and lastly when Mat goes back to rescue you know who. Other than that it doesn’t affect the series and if something only matters 3 times in 14 books it’s a candidate for cut.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Arakasi

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

he does need to get the foxhead medallion from somewhere

Not having watched, but I recall in the first season there were suggestions that Valda survived his Aes Sedai hunting because he had a channeling-cancelling medallion. Has this season provided any more evidence for that idea? In that case, he could be the ultimate source of Mat getting a hold of the medallion.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Not having watched, but I recall in the first season there were suggestions that Valda survived his Aes Sedai hunting because he had a channeling-cancelling medallion. Has this season provided any more evidence for that idea? In that case, he could be the ultimate source of Mat getting a hold of the medallion.

No it has not. Valda barely appeared and he was nearly killed by Hopper at the Battle of Falme. He then ran off after Perrin went berserk.

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Well his staff there does have ravens on it which seems to indicate that. I don’t know if it’s been cut entirely because he does need to get the foxhead medallion from somewhere but it’s also a weird scene that only matters three times. Once at the beginning of TSR, once at the Cairhein battle and lastly when Mat goes back to rescue you know who. Other than that it doesn’t affect the series and if something only matters 3 times in 14 books it’s a candidate for cut.

Yeah, but this raises the broader question of Mat's arc.  If he has the memories of all his past lives (speaking old tongue for example), and his ashandarei then all he needs is the foxhead medallion (and marriage to Tuon) and he'll be ready for the Last Battle. 

I haven't seen the rest of Sanderson video (upto like 28 min I think) but I imagine he makes a similar point based on his earlier comment about arcs and themes. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

So I've watched some but not all of the Sanderson view of the last episode, but it seems like he gives away a pretty significant spoiler.  It seems like the spear with the dagger is actually Mat's Ashandarei.  Sanderson qualifies it by saying as far as he knows, but since he has seen the script, it is almost certainly described that way in the script. 

Disappointing news if true.  The logical implication is the Tower of Ghenjei and the Eelfin/Aelfin have been cut.  

This "ashandarei" would be annoying.

1) How does one manage to knot a dagger to a staff so well it doesn't fly off the minute you hit something? I once dressed up as Mat for Halloween and used a plastic scythe for the ashandareri. I pulled off the blade and put it axially at the end of the shaft and duct taped it in place. But I was under no illusion I could do twirly twirlies with it.

2) Mat using the SL dagger as his main weapon for the rest of the series would be messed up and likely stunt his growth as a character. 

[Arakasi]

It could be he drops this evil weapon for a true replacement. Would be a transformative change. I am guessing that is what happens because well duh the dagger is still evil but we’ll have to see.

[Gaston de Foix]

1 minute ago, Arakasi said:

It could be he drops this evil weapon for a true replacement. Would be a transformative change. I am guessing that is what happens because well duh the dagger is still evil but we’ll have to see.

Maybe.  That would be good.  But I don't get the sense that Sanderson got told it was temporary. 

There was some discussion of whether it is "the" Ashandarei and the implication was that to the best of Sanderson's knowledge it was.  I have to think that if he pushed back on it (as he said he did) then the showrunners would have reassured him of an upcoming replacement.  But the silence there is telling.  It wouldn't surprise me at all that they haven't figured it out for the future.  Occam's razor it's just lazy storytelling.  

There is another side to this of course.  There's no guarantee WOT will go 8 seasons, and moving places in piece for abbreviated story-telling in 4 or 5 seasons is sensible.  

[Arakasi]

Another possible solution is there is a quest or something to cleanse the dagger of its evil at which point it becomes the weapon he continues to use.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

It seems like the spear with the dagger is actually Mat's Ashandarei.

Here is a response by Sanderson on a reddit thread:

Quote

I haven't read for season three yet. I know they had to film some quickly because of the upcoming strikes. My feedback wasn't solicited at that time, though Rafe has been in touch recently to mention getting my help on some things.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Did Jordan give any info on whether there was an afterlife? Key souls lingered in Telaranrhiod(sp) until rebirth, and I assume everyobe else was reborn too. Was there a Heaven/Hell? Basically, was there any  ‘punishment’ for characters who served the shadow?

[IFR]

13 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Another possible solution is there is a quest or something to cleanse the dagger of its evil at which point it becomes the weapon he continues to use.

If they're cutting the Finns for time reasons, how are they going to make room for an original plot to cleanse the dagger in season 3?

Already there is a lot that needs to be done. Again, the books are not at all a reliable guide for future events in the show, but presumably in some form we'll have:

1) Perrin possibly meeting Faile (unless he's intended to match with Aviendha instead or whatever they plan).

2) Perrin going to the Two Rivers.

3) Rand going to the Waste.

4) Potentially Rand getting Callandor? It hasn't been mentioned in the show, so I doubt this.

5) The overthrow of Siuan. Unless the showrunners intend for her to team up with Elaida against Moiraine, or something along that line.

6) Elayne romancing Rand? 

7) Nynaeve and Elayne off on their adventure to hunt Black Ajah, and potentially deal with Moghedien.

8) Whatever additional scenes are required to pad out the screentime for Moiraine and Lan. Perhaps this could be the cleansing plot line?

[Arakasi]

I imagine we get a lot next year of Lan training Rand and taking part in those fights with him. And Moiraine settles is as his advisor. They are much more than the books setting Lanfear and Moiraine as enemies. So I think Cairhein does happen but I have no idea if Moiraines plot at that point follows the books.

[Werthead]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

The problem is that I think he IS a true fan and can't separate theo show and the book - which have to be very different animals for many reasons. He mentioned that he was disappointed to not get the sky battle, which was one of his favorite moments from the books. He also argued that Rand beating a blademaster (Turok) in the books was totally earned because Lan trained him for a few months. That's when I realized we don't view the books in the same light at all.

I always thought Rand hitting Blademaster level in a couple of months was pure bullshit, but I did rationalise it as some of his last-life Lews Therin training coming through subconsciously. With centuries to practice with the blade, Lews/Rand and any of the Forsaken should be able to kill any modern-day "blademaster" in seconds (Lan beating Demandred was a bit cheesy for that, but at least they had Demandred get winded by fighting half a dozen lower-tier characters first, which kinda makes it work).