Israel - Hamas War IV

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

Would you kindly do so again?

I can't do that because I have to ready for a PBS taping*, and it means going back through stuff.  But google, for pete's sake.

* Not for this subject, which isn't my area of expertise, but on the economics of the US institution of slavery and its domestic slave trade.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Zorral

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I can't do that because I have to ready for a PBS taping, and it means going back through stuff.  But google, for pete's sake.

Ive read a bunch of stuff, still had questions. thought someone here had a more in-depth analysis handy. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Relic

[Tywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

When was that again? Remind me. 

Start with the 1920's. The problem with this conflict is both sides can keep going back and pick another date, but it's hard to argue Israel isn't the Jewish homeland and that they left it by choice which doesn't make it a colony. The ignorant post was when someone suggested they should have just been given a piece of Australia to call their own.

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh their definition of who is white is relative.

It's easy to say that when you're not in the group of people they want to dehumanize and eliminate from existence. 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.... 

 

Israel is not a colony of any other country.  And many of its Jewish inhabitants are black or brown.  There are, perhaps, some similarities with Liberia.

Edited October 19, 2023 by SeanF

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

Ive read a bunch of stuff, thought someone here had a more in-depth analysis handy. 

The BBC has some analysis here.

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Hamas is not a fringe minority party. They are the governing power of Gaza.

Not by the Gazan's choice. The Israeli government bears more culpability for the current power of Hamas than most Gazans, since a majority weren't alive in 2006, or didn't vote for them back then, and certainly didn't have the financial means to compete with the state of Israel. 

So, why should Gazans citizens have to pay for this? 

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

My point there is about the future, after Hamas, not at the present. As I said earlier in the thread, I am not suggesting Israel should impose some puppet regime, or insist that the only parties that can be considered are those "amendable" to Israel  -- the people of Gaza should choose freely, and will almost certainly choose a religious-based party, and probably one very unhappy with Israel and the situation, and rightly so.

But if they choose a jihadist party that denies the right of Israel to exist, like the Palestinian Islamic Jhiad, we are back to square one.

Why are we back to square one? We'd back to square one if this party, or the new democratic state you're envisioning, decides to act on this, and has the means to do so, neither of which needs to be true in the future you're envisioning. A new state can be contingent on some agreed upon definition of non aggression from both sides.

If and when that is broken, we'd be back to war, but not back to this square where a people who no power and no rights are being held responsible for the terrorism of their "governing body" and are being subjected to collective punishment. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What exactly do you think those Israeli settlements on the West Bank are, for pete's sake.  Another thing that the Bibilikud corrupt jerkwaddies have been facilitating and which the hundreds of thousands Israeli protesters to it have been protesting!

You keep ignoring basic facts of the matter that have been festering for years.  Which, again, is why hundreds of thousands of Israelis protest -- and yet they haven't been able to change it, even with their elections in which Bibi essentially LOST.

And again, Palestinian women and babies are unarmed, and do not vote.

 

Yes. And all the while the toothless, useless UN claims these settlements are illegal and what happens? Fuck all. 
 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

[Bael's Bastard]

43 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Alright, let's remove the word 'white.' But it's definitely a European colony. 

Having said that, Israel was most definitely created by a bunch of white, Christian Zionists. With a deeply religious, bible based agenda. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Israel is no more or less a "European colony" than all the Arab and Muslim states that were proposed/established from the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, including Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and an Arab Palestine.

Such propaganda enabled the Arab world to get away with committing a total ethnic cleansing of the ancient Jewish exile communities and attempting to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing against the re-established Jewish state with impunity.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

The BBC has some analysis here.

I've read this before, its very surface level stuff. But thanks anyway. 

[Bael's Bastard]

43 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I do think only part of the left sees it this way, and it is also untrue. Because only approx 30 % Isrealis are of European descent and  because there is no jewish European motherland, of which Israel is a colony. On the contrary, also in  Europe the Jews were always a persecuted minority.

Furthermore, Jews sold into slavery/exiled to Europe are no less indigenous to Israel than those sold into slavery/exiled to MENA lands. They did not leave by choice, they did not allow imperialist colonizers from west and east to reduce them to an oppressed minority in their own land by choice.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Relic said:

I've read this before, its very surface level stuff. But thanks anyway. 

Try these:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/detailed-hamas-secretly-crossed-israel/story?id=103917182
 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/hamas-posted-video-of-mock-attack-on-social-media-weeks-before-border-breach
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/how-did-hamas-manage-to-carry-out-its-rampage-through-southern-israel

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/10/how-hamas-entered-israel/

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Start with the 1920's. The problem with this conflict is both sides can keep going back and pick another date, but it's hard to argue Israel isn't the Jewish homeland and that they left it by choice which doesn't make it a colony. The ignorant post was when someone suggested they should have just been given a piece of Australia to call their own.

It's easy to say that when you're not in the group of people they want to dehumanize and eliminate from existence. 

I guess the argument is that the Ottomans and British should simply never have allowed Jews to buy land there, from the 1890's onwards, but I think that would be hard to justify on ethical grounds.

[Bael's Bastard]

It's interesting that some people seem to think indigenous peoples can lose their indigeneity to the imperialists and colonizers who reduced them to an oppressed minority in their own land through killing, slavery, exile, and forced/compelled conversion if enough time passes, at least if that indigenous people is Jews.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's easy to say that when you're not in the group of people they want to dehumanize and eliminate from existence. 

Eh I’m black and people with darker skin than me have decided themselves are white and certain other groups are not.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's interesting that some people seem to think indigenous peoples can lose their indigeneity to the imperialists and colonizers who reduced them to an oppressed minority in their own land through slavery, exile, and forced/compelled conversion if enough time passes, at least if that indigenous people is Jews.

Are we seriously going land back to what people had back to Old Testament Biblical times? 
Because I don’t think anyone wins there.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's interesting that some people seem to think indigenous peoples can lose their indigeneity to the imperialists and colonizers who reduced them to an oppressed minority in their own land through killing, slavery, exile, and forced/compelled conversion if enough time passes, at least if that indigenous people is Jews.

As a child of the "Jewel in the fucking crown" of the British Empire, I don't think so.

But I do think it is bizarre for people who lived through this to insist the Palestinians must also, and deny them the right to return to homes they were displaced from.

I'm not saying this is your view, but it certainly seems you're doing some selective moralizing here.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

As a child of the "Jewel in the fucking crown" of the British Empire, I don't think so.

But I do think it is bizarre for people who lived through this to insist the Palestinians must also, and deny them the right to return to homes they were displaced from.

I'm not saying this is your view, but it certainly seems you're doing some selective moralizing here.

Palestinians should have a right to return to a Palestinian state based in the WB and Gaza with mutually agreed swaps (obviously not gonna happen with the current govs). However unjust it might seem, they should not have a right to return within Israel, anymore than Jews should have a right to return within the WB (despite our ancient history there, and the many thousands who were ethnically cleansed by Jordan and Iraq in modern times). That said, a Palestinian state should be able to accept some Jewish citizens just as Israel has nearly 2 million Arab Palestinian Israeli citizens.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Darryk]

I was worried this thread would eventually go in the direction of "should Israel even exist at all?" 

Why don't people complain about Pakistan and India? Pretty similar situation, Pakistan was only created so Muslims could have their own India, and Indians see Pakistan much the way Arabs see Israel.

With the difference being that, unlike Pakistanis, Jews actually inhabited Israel 2000 years ago.

I mean, where do people think the Palestinian Arabs came to Israel from anyway? They're not indigenous. Arabs come from Arabia, it's in the name. How is Palestine not an Arab colony?

Ashkenazi form only 30% of Israel's population. Are the other 70%, many of which are Middle Eastern Jews, colonists?

Jews have been turning toward Jerusalem when they pray for 2000 years. One of their most important prayers is "If I forget thee, oh Jerusalem, let me tongue cleave to my mouth, and let my right hand forget its need". 

Jews have been trying to get to the Holy Land since long before Christian Zionists started discussing the idea of a Zionist state.

When people say the Jews should have been given a state in Australia I want to throw up.

[Bael's Bastard]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Are we seriously going land back to what people had back to Old Testament Biblical times? 
Because I don’t think anyone wins there.

No, it is about ceasing denial of Jewish origins and place in the land. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of Jewish history, but most Israelis are willing to part with most of that for peace with a real partner (which Barak and Olmert found out Arafat and Abbas were not, unless something has changed with Abbas since then).

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Tywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh I’m black and people with darker skin than me have decided themselves are white and certain other groups are not.

 

Go read about racial identity in Brazil then. You might find it fascinating.