Israel - Hamas war XIII

[Zorral]

Of course I noticed the date.  I deliberately include dates.  It shows how long such inflictions have been going on.  We could go back years, in fact.

Today, so far.

Israeli airstrike kills Gaza aid worker and 70 of his extended family, UN says
Call to protect civilians and humanitarian staff after UNDP’s Issam al-Mughrabi, his wife, children and scores of relatives killed

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israeli-airstrike-kills-gaza-aid-worker-and-70-of-his-extended-family-un-says

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israeli campaign to kill Hamas leaders likely to backfire, say earlier assassination targets
‘It made us fight more,’ says one former Fatah intelligence chief, among those warning strategy could prove counterproductive

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israeli-campaign-to-kill-hamas-leaders-likely-to-backfire-say-earlier-assassination-targets

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Food aid failing to reach Gaza residents despite ‘catastrophic’ hunger crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/dec/23/food-aid-failing-to-reach-gaza-residents-despite-catastrophic-hunger-crisis

Quote

 

.... On Friday, the United Nations security council backed a resolution calling for a major boost in humanitarian assistance for Gaza. But the UN secretary general, António Guterres, told reporters: “The real problem is that the way Israel is conducting this offensive is creating massive obstacles to the distribution of humanitarian aid inside Gaza.”

The World Food Programme has also said it is becoming more difficult to reach people because of intensified fighting, with food becoming scarce and expensive, and fuel for cooking hard to find. The WFP’s most recent food security update said the situation is worst in northern Gaza, where 90% of people have gone a full day and night without eating. ....

.... A WFP spokesperson said it is continuing aid deliveries but “there is simply not enough food”.

The UN agency said it has reached 760,000 people with “fortified biscuits, food parcels or wheat flour” over the past two weeks.

“With just a fraction of the needed food supplies coming in, a lack of fuel, interruptions to communications and no safety, we cannot do our job,” they said.

“The WFP takes the unauthorised selling of its humanitarian food assistance extremely seriously and is committed to ensuring that it reaches the most vulnerable people who depend on it for their survival.” ....

 

 

[Ran]

I find this an edifying reminder that the US has its priorities straight, and the people reading the vote tea leaves are coping with the fact that the US has its head on straight:

Quote

Blinken noted in the briefing that “understandably, everyone would like to see this conflict end as quickly as possible,” but, he observed, “if it ends with Hamas remaining in place and having the capacity and the stated intent to repeat October 7th again and again and again, that’s not in the interests of Israel, it’s not in the interests of the region, it’s not in the interests of the world.”

[House Balstroko]

23 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Demanding that a people just accept their dispossession, especially one that is still within living human memory is gross. Jewish people have the right to safety and security, but not at the expense of another people. One multiethnic state where both Israelis and Palestinians are afforded equal rights and the safety and protection of all people is guaranteed by the state from the river to the sea is the only just solution. This does not mean the dispossession of Israelis, but reparations will have to be made to Palestinians.

 

The first step towards building a Palestinian state is with the recognition that Israel is an independent nation. Yes, Israel should vacate the settlements in the West Bank as part of building a lasting peace.

Your insistence on a one state solution for Jews, Christians and Muslims is at odds with the reality of the situation. When a non trivial number of Arabs outright deny events like the Holocaust, including those in positions of power like Assad, the problems become all too obvious. I don’t doubt that you have good intentions in your desire to see everyone come together, it just isn’t beneficial to anyone. 
 

 

[Tywin et al.]

And as I've mentioned before, how does a noncontiguous state even work here assuming Israel is fully recognized and Hamas is removed? The entire situation is a quagmire with a new problem every time you think you've solved one. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And as I've mentioned before, how does a noncontiguous state even work here assuming Israel is fully recognized and Hamas is removed? The entire situation is a quagmire with a new problem every time you think you've solved one. 

Noncontiguous states really aren't that big a deal. They're even less a big deal when you have a distance of only a few dozen miles to cover. As I said before plenty of other countries do it without any real issue.

This ain't the 1600s. There are a lot of transportation options available, communication is very easy, and both sides o f Palestine have access to either allied countries to work with or sea resources. 

Alternately, since you're such a fan of evicting people unnecessarily, you could easily cut out a bunch of southern Israel to make it contiguous. Southern Israel is not that populated - certainly not compared to the Gaza Strip - and apparently it's totally fine to just kick people out of land they've been occupying for 75 years or more if it's slightly more pleasing to mapmakers. You really would have made the 19th century imperialists proud. 

[Tywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Noncontiguous states really aren't that big a deal. They're even less a big deal when you have a distance of only a few dozen miles to cover. As I said before plenty of other countries do it without any real issue.

This ain't the 1600s. There are a lot of transportation options available, communication is very easy, and both sides o f Palestine have access to either allied countries to work with or sea resources. 

It's not when the country in between is friends with the noncontiguous state. Canada and the US don't always see eye to eye, but that has no impact on Alaska. It's not going to work the same with the WB and Gaza. Like I've said before all you'd do is create one more giant set of problems. Just for starters, does Israel get to control the airports or super highway needed to connect them? There's no good answer unless your position is Israel surrenders what they would view as their needs to defend their territory. And then would this new Palestinian state agree to never attack them? Good luck with that.

Quote

Alternately, since you're such a fan of evicting people unnecessarily, you could easily cut out a bunch of southern Israel to make it contiguous. Southern Israel is not that populated - certainly not compared to the Gaza Strip - and apparently it's totally fine to just kick people out of land they've been occupying for 75 years or more if it's slightly more pleasing to mapmakers. You really would have made the 19th century imperialists proud. 

Right, because that will happen. Live in the real world my friend. 

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Noncontiguous states really aren't that big a deal. They're even less a big deal when you have a distance of only a few dozen miles to cover. As I said before plenty of other countries do it without any real issue.

This ain't the 1600s. There are a lot of transportation options available, communication is very easy, and both sides o f Palestine have access to either allied countries to work with or sea resources. 

Alternately, since you're such a fan of evicting people unnecessarily, you could easily cut out a bunch of southern Israel to make it contiguous. Southern Israel is not that populated - certainly not compared to the Gaza Strip - and apparently it's totally fine to just kick people out of land they've been occupying for 75 years or more if it's slightly more pleasing to mapmakers. You really would have made the 19th century imperialists proud. 

I get where you're coming from on this, but we're not talking about the US and Canada, or the UK and Spain. Russia can have Kaliningrad because they have the ability in terms of military might and international stature to tell everyone else to fuck off, a theoretical Palestinian state has none of those things. In fact, Israel has said numerous times that even in the case of a two state solution, the Palestinian state would still be less than a state. They would not have control of their airspace, they could not have a military and would still be more or less a territory of the Israeli state and eternally at their mercy.

As for the distance, everything in a two state solution would be built around Israel's security concerns given any ground travel would necessarily have to go through Israel. There would be dozens of checkpoints similar to what we see in the West Bank now, and this would be both for security reasons, as well as to make it as hard as possible to travel between the two parts of the state and create fragmentation within the population.

4 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

The first step towards building a Palestinian state is with the recognition that Israel is an independent nation. Yes, Israel should vacate the settlements in the West Bank as part of building a lasting peace.

Your insistence on a one state solution for Jews, Christians and Muslims is at odds with the reality of the situation. When a non trivial number of Arabs outright deny events like the Holocaust, including those in positions of power like Assad, the problems become all too obvious. I don’t doubt that you have good intentions in your desire to see everyone come together, it just isn’t beneficial to anyone.

There is nothing at odds with reality when it comes to a one state solution. The primary driver of antisemitism amongst the Palestinians is not some battle of civilization bullshit that has been fed to us by Islamophobic assholes who want you to believe that the Muslim world is incapable of coexisting with Christian/secular European oriented countries, the primary driver is the Israeli occupation. Removing the occupation, while it would not be an immediate remedy, would be the single biggest step you could take towards mitigating antisemitism in the Muslim world.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived in those lands in relative peace for centuries, it can happen again. This is not wishful thinking, in South Africa, blacks and whites live side by side in relative peace, British people and Irish people, while the centuries of occupation aren't forgotten, are able to coexist with little problem. Wounds such as these, no matter how deep, can be healed, you just have to stop tearing them open over and over again.

Edited December 24, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's not when the country in between is friends with the noncontiguous state. Canada and the US don't always see eye to eye, but that has no impact on Alaska. It's not going to work the same with the WB and Gaza. Like I've said before all you'd do is create one more giant set of problems. Just for starters, does Israel get to control the airports or super highway needed to connect them? There's no good answer unless your position is Israel surrenders what they would view as their needs to defend their territory. And then would this new Palestinian state agree to never attack them? Good luck with that.

There are never going to be perfect solutions. That doesn't mean they can't be workable.

There are also a lot more states that are noncontiguous than the US and Russia. You're welcome to go look them up and how they worked. They have also existed in the past, such as Berlin and west Germany. 

As far as who controls what, practically all airports and ports of entry of any palestinian state would be controlled by Israel or acceptable israeli allies for a long while. That's going to be the case no matter what number of territories Palestinians have. If you believe an airport to be an existential risk to Israel it will be that way independent of the number of territories. If Palestinian freedom of movement is a risk, it doesn't matter how many territories they have. And all of that control would STILL be better than what Palestinians have now. There are also well-understood systems to give people more rights and autonomy as they go forward after losing a war. 

If you wanted to do a highway - something I wouldn't recommend to start with - it would again be likely administered by israel. 

Now, if your goal is to never allow Israel to administer anything in a Palestinian state to start with then there is only one realistic solution - to obliterate all Palestinians. Israel will not allow Palestinians full control of borders and ports for decades.  

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Right, because that will happen. Live in the real world my friend. 

I'm just riffing on your ideas of ethnic cleansing in exchange for removing illegal settlements - something that is never going to happen either. My idea is also rational and also only moves, like, half a million people instead of the nearly 3 million your solution does. 

[Darzin]

Gaza and the West Bank are an easily surmountable problem just have an extra-territorial tunnel with a highway and rail line. It's not that common and these things can work between adversaries.  East and West Berlin shared a metro system for example and the meeting compound in-between North and South Korea is another. With a little bit of thought these kind of things can work even between bitter enemies. 

[Tywin et al.]

7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

There are never going to be perfect solutions. That doesn't mean they can't be workable.

No shit.

Quote

Now, if your goal is to never allow Israel to administer anything in a Palestinian state to start with then there is only one realistic solution - to obliterate all Palestinians. Israel will not allow Palestinians full control of borders and ports for decades.  

Or you could create a Palestinian state that's entirely independent of Israel. Sure there are other noncontiguous states that have worked, but there's no evidence this one will work. You're better of making Gaza its own state than trying to connect the two.

Quote

I'm just riffing on your ideas of ethnic cleansing in exchange for removing illegal settlements - something that is never going to happen either. My idea is also rational and also only moves, like, half a million people instead of the nearly 3 million your solution does. 

Both sides value the WB more, so quit with this ethnic cleansing BS. Getting the better side of a deal isn't ethnic cleansing when it also requires a lot of people on the other side to also have to be relocated. 

1 hour ago, Darzin said:

Gaza and the West Bank are an easily surmountable problem just have an extra-territorial tunnel with a highway and rail line. It's not that common and these things can work between adversaries.  East and West Berlin shared a metro system for example and the meeting compound in-between North and South Korea is another. With a little bit of thought these kind of things can work even between bitter enemies. 

So you think it's wise to create an underground tunnel that will instantly become one of the most guarded and likely attacked places on Earth? Okay...

Edited December 24, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Darzin said:

 East and West Berlin shared a metro system for example and the meeting compound in-between North and South Korea is another. 

 

Neither of these things is even remotely like Israel and Palestine in either practicalities or the political situation. 

[Darzin]

I think that the connecting corridor in a future independent Palestinian state is unlikely to be attacked, In the current situation it's obviously unfeasible. 

[Darryk]

9 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

There is nothing at odds with reality when it comes to a one state solution

There is never going to be a one-state solution.

Arabs would be the majority and would block Jewish immigration which would defeat the purpose of Israel existing.

Relations between Arabs and Jews in the region weren't as peaceful as people like to make out. For one, Jews were secondary citizens.

[Tywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I think that the connecting corridor in a future independent Palestinian state is unlikely to be attacked, In the current situation it's obviously unfeasible. 

Then you're blind.

[Tywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Arabs would be the majority and would block Jewish immigration which would defeat the purpose of Israel existing.

Not block, remove and/or kill. Again, the lack of understanding here is shocking. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Or you could create a Palestinian state that's entirely independent of Israel. Sure there are other noncontiguous states that have worked, but there's no evidence this one will work. You're better of making Gaza its own state than trying to connect the two.

This isn't a real world solution. There is not going to be an independent Palestinian state for decades- Israel will never allow it. That is true no matter how many territories it has.

We've also seen how well a multistate Palestinian solution works - not well! You get Gaza and west Bank fighting an effective civil war and extremists in power, with no elections and israel prodding both sides against each other. And then you get another 10-7. Why propose something we already have evidence doesn't work?

 

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Both sides value the WB more, so quit with this ethnic cleansing BS. Getting the better side of a deal isn't ethnic cleansing when it also requires a lot of people on the other side to also have to be relocated. 

Both sides do not want the west Bank more. Israel might, but Palestinians are not that upset about Gaza the land. And given the rhetoric of having coastal resorts and homes coming out of Israel these days it seems like they want Gaza too. What Israel doesn't want is those pesky Palestinians currently living there - but fortunately your plan of ethnic cleansing takes care of that.

And yes, it still is ethnic cleansing. I'm sorry that words mean things you don't want them to mean.

 

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

This isn't a real world solution. There is not going to be an independent Palestinian state for decades- Israel will never allow it. That is true no matter how many territories it has.

We've also seen how well a multistate Palestinian solution works - not well! You get Gaza and west Bank fighting an effective civil war and extremists in power, with no elections and israel prodding both sides against each other. And then you get another 10-7. Why propose something we already have evidence doesn't work?

Probably not now, but there could have been. Even before the current situation the problem has always been compromising. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say a single state in the WB can't work, it's just that there's a lot of other problems that makes it hard. What I know is 100% a bad idea is the highway idea. 
 

Quote

Both sides do not want the west Bank more. Israel might, but Palestinians are not that upset about Gaza the land. And given the rhetoric of having coastal resorts and homes coming out of Israel these days it seems like they want Gaza too. What Israel doesn't want is those pesky Palestinians currently living there - but fortunately your plan of ethnic cleansing takes care of that.

Both sides see the WB as being more valuable because of space. Coastal land is more valuable to Palestinians, but the deals they'd need to cut to rebuild and make that possible will probably leave them seeing pennies on the dollar. 

[GrimTuesday]

6 hours ago, Darryk said:

There is never going to be a one-state solution.

Arabs would be the majority and would block Jewish immigration which would defeat the purpose of Israel existing.

Relations between Arabs and Jews in the region weren't as peaceful as people like to make out. For one, Jews were secondary citizens.

You realize that these sorts of things can be guaranteed as part of the creation of single state, right? It's not like some blinding flash of light is going to illuminate the sky and Israel and Palestine will merge into a single state. There is going to be a significant role of outside influence by the US and the other great powers in the establishment of a single state and it would necessarily require certain protections for Jews to ensure that they weren't persecuted.

If you want a Jewish dominated ethnostate, too fucking bad, you don't get to colonize a land and disenfranchise those who have been living there for centuries. You can cry all you want about second class citizens in history, but we're in the present, and we can choose to learn for the mistakes and inequalities of the past, we don't have to repeat them now that the shoe is on the other foot.

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not block, remove and/or kill. Again, the lack of understanding here is shocking. 

In the American south, the line was always we can't give slaves equal rights to their masters, otherwise they will rise up against the whites and there will be a race war. This has been echoed every time there has been an oppressor and oppressed dynamic throughout history. Don't get me wrong, in a few cases, is has come to fruition, but in the vast majority of cases, it has not.

[KingintheNorth4]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:55 AM, Zorral said:

Of course I noticed the date.  I deliberately include dates.  It shows how long such inflictions have been going on.  We could go back years, in fact.

Today, so far.

Israeli airstrike kills Gaza aid worker and 70 of his extended family, UN says
Call to protect civilians and humanitarian staff after UNDP’s Issam al-Mughrabi, his wife, children and scores of relatives killed

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israeli-airstrike-kills-gaza-aid-worker-and-70-of-his-extended-family-un-says

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israeli campaign to kill Hamas leaders likely to backfire, say earlier assassination targets
‘It made us fight more,’ says one former Fatah intelligence chief, among those warning strategy could prove counterproductive

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/23/israeli-campaign-to-kill-hamas-leaders-likely-to-backfire-say-earlier-assassination-targets

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Food aid failing to reach Gaza residents despite ‘catastrophic’ hunger crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/dec/23/food-aid-failing-to-reach-gaza-residents-despite-catastrophic-hunger-crisis

 

Being an aide worker and journalist in Gaza is a virtual death sentence. 

[AncalagonTheBlack]