mormont Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Not that I know of. Polling data: https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/life-israel-oct-charts.aspx Quote One in four Israeli adults currently support the existence of an independent Palestinian state, while most (65%) oppose it. This is almost a complete reversal of where they stood on the issue a decade ago, when twice as many Israeli adults supported an independent Palestinian state (61%) as opposed one (30%). Quote Between 2006 and 2017, 29% of Israelis, on average, thought lasting peace was possible. Since the Oct. 7 attack, less than half as many (13%) hold on to the hope that it could still happen, while a record-high 74% do not expect a permanent peace between the two sides. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about two state solutions and reconstruction of Gaza and so on, but Israelis appear unwilling to buy a bar of it. Kalbear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 hours ago, Zorral said: Echos .... Israel in talks with Congo and other countries on Gaza ‘voluntary migration’ plan Senior official says Jerusalem working on postwar resettlement of Palestinians from Strip; some ministers tout Saudi Arabia as destination for Gazans seeking construction work https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/ I suppose they were sensible enough not to ask Uganda or Madagascar... JGP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 31 minutes ago, mormont said: Not that I know of. Polling data: https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/life-israel-oct-charts.aspx There's been a lot of talk in this thread about two state solutions and reconstruction of Gaza and so on, but Israelis appear unwilling to buy a bar of it. Perhaps it could be because the other side has gotten more extreme, no? Hard to make a peace deal with a new state when the people that will lead it still say they want to kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 hours ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said: If you put the word "voluntary" in the description of the forced resettlement plan, then it gives you a free dodge out of ethnic cleansing accusations Which is why the source surrounded those words with scare quotes! 4 hours ago, Ran said: e only needs to believe that Abbas' corruption is part of why Fatah is a useless partner in insuring the restoraton of Gaza and security for Gazans and Israelis alike. People see Bibi included in any future anything for either Israel or the Palestinians the same way! 2 hours ago, Kalbear said: That doesn't guarantee anyone else that will be more reasonable. Recall the Likud's party's 1973 charter's First Article declares, "Between the Sea and the River Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." To which I linked here previously. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party kissdbyfire and Matrim Fox Cauthon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Perhaps it could be because the other side has gotten more extreme, no? Hard to make a peace deal with a new state when the people that will lead it still say they want to kill you. Yes, we can certainly see the Palestinians thinking that! dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Perhaps it could be because the other side has gotten more extreme, no? Hard to make a peace deal with a new state when the people that will lead it still say they want to kill you. The same was true ten years ago, when Israelis were much more optimistic about both questions. And the change in attitudes predates October 7th, so that wasn't it. A more credible reading is that the side that has got 'more extreme' during this shift in Israeli attitudes is, well, Israel. This change in attitudes happens over the period when the US basically drops pressure on Israel for a two state solution and doesn't do anything of substance to push for peace, the Israeli right decides on the policy of divide and rule, the Israeli left stops talking about peace, and Israeli voters became more right wing. Since for much of that time Hamas' behaviour (deplorable as it is) doesn't change, it's not credible to assign blame to that factor. JGP, Matrim Fox Cauthon, dbergkvist and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, mormont said: The same was true ten years ago, when Israelis were much more optimistic about both questions. And the change in attitudes predates October 7th, so that wasn't it. A more credible reading is that the side that has got 'more extreme' during this shift in Israeli attitudes is, well, Israel. This change in attitudes happens over the period when the US basically drops pressure on Israel for a two state solution and doesn't do anything of substance to push for peace, the Israeli right decides on the policy of divide and rule, the Israeli left stops talking about peace, and Israeli voters became more right wing. Since for much of that time Hamas' behaviour (deplorable as it is) doesn't change, it's not credible to assign blame to that factor. I read this as being straight backwards. Ten additional years of terror attacks leads to decreased belief in peace... that makes perfect sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said: Ten additional years of terror attacks leads to decreased belief in peace. Why yes, Palestinians have experienced ever acclerating in scope and scale of terror attacks, theft, arrests, killings and degradations! fionwe1987, dbergkvist, TrueMetis and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 24 minutes ago, mormont said: A more credible reading is that the side that has got 'more extreme' during this shift in Israeli attitudes is, well, Israel. This change in attitudes happens over the period when the US basically drops pressure on Israel for a two state solution and doesn't do anything of substance to push for peace, the Israeli right decides on the policy of divide and rule, the Israeli left stops talking about peace, and Israeli voters became more right wing. Since for much of that time Hamas' behaviour (deplorable as it is) doesn't change, it's not credible to assign blame to that factor. Israel has gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. The unrelenting calls for death and destruction have pushed people in Israel to be more hostile. Then you have to factor in how the waves of suicide bombings also pushed them that way. The Israeli side has gone back and forth about a two state solution. The Palestinian side has pretty much always been a no. One state and the Jews leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Z, you're one of my favorites. ... Must... resist... glibness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 28 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Israel has gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. The unrelenting calls for death and destruction have pushed people in Israel to be more hostile. Then you have to factor in how the waves of suicide bombings also pushed them that way. The Israeli side has gone back and forth about a two state solution. The Palestinian side has pretty much always been a no. One state and the Jews leave. The last 20 years have been mostly hard right government's in Israel. Also, the suicide bombings were way down compare to 90's-2000s. Israel built walls, established Iron Dome, and with all this safety they continue to expand settlements in the WB and just ignores the Palestinian. When Israel felt more safe, they expanded. Craving Peaches, fionwe1987, dbergkvist and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 54 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said: The last 20 years have been mostly hard right government's in Israel. Also, the suicide bombings were way down compare to 90's-2000s. Israel built walls, established Iron Dome, and with all this safety they continue to expand settlements in the WB and just ignores the Palestinian. When Israel felt more safe, they expanded. They were still bad when it was my turn to go back for the summer in the mid 2000's, hence why I didn't. So ask yourself, why did they need something like the Iron Dome? It wasn't safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: One state and the Jews leave. One state and the Palestinians are expelled forever from generationally held homes and farms and culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: Israel has gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. The more extreme of Palestinians have gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. TrueMetis and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 13 minutes ago, Zorral said: The more extreme of Palestinians have gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. I guess that benefit of understanding the causes and reasons only applies to one side. The powerfull one, the conquering one, the colonizing one. And here we are, discussing the worth of palestinian lives dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Zorral said: One state and the Palestinians are expelled forever from generationally held homes and farms and culture. So were the Jews by force, so end this canard. And keep in mind, when Israel was created, it was the Jewish side that reluctantly accepted a path to two states. The Palestinian side said fuck no. 48 minutes ago, Zorral said: The more extreme of Palestinians have gotten more extreme. But you have to ask why. Because not years, not decades but generations of violence. ETA: Since you mentioned farms, the Jewish side gave the Palestinians the good farm land and took the desert. As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Edited January 4 by Tywin et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: he Jewish side gave the Palestinians the good farm land and took the desert. How generous of them who have all the wealth, military backing of 'the west', seat in the UN, yet somehow the Palestinians are locked into prison camps, their homes confiscated, Israel determined to take what they were left with. As has been documented here over and over. Craving Peaches, dbergkvist, Crixus and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 52 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: They were still bad when it was my turn to go back for the summer in the mid 2000's, hence why I didn't. So ask yourself, why did they need something like the Iron Dome? It wasn't safe. They want the Iron Dome so they can be independent in the actions they want to take. I understand the reason and "need" for it. It though addressing a symptom of an underling disease and that is the continual occupation. That the defense is done so they do not need to address the occupation. The actions Israel taken are not to end their occupation, it is to avoid and minimize the consequences of its continuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, Zorral said: How generous of them who have all the wealth, military backing of 'the west', seat in the UN, yet somehow the Palestinians are locked into prison camps, their homes confiscated, Israel determined to take what they were left with. As has been documented here over and over. Here we go again with the money, sigh. Also, just look at the US and the problems at the Southern border. Now imagine waves of suicide bombings ordered by the Mexican government with them openly saying they want to destroy the US. Would or would we not crack down on that? Wouldn't any country that could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: So were the Jews by force, so end this canard. You know what's canard? Making an appeal to a forced expulsions of jews from Judea in the 1st century CE during the reign of Emperor Titus. But keep in mind, that the majority of Jewish people were not even living in Judea during that time. From what I recall, about sixty to seventy percent of Jews were living outside of Judea during this time, particularly in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Rome. The Jewish Diaspora began before this point. But it wasn't even a complete expulsion, as Jews continued to live in Palestine afterwards to varying degrees. 4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Here we go again with the money, sigh. Here we go again with the veiled accusations of Anti-Semitism, sigh. Edited January 4 by Matrim Fox Cauthon dbergkvist, Crixus, Craving Peaches and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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