Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[DireWolfSpirit]

I wanted to use "the permanent cluster f__k" as title but didnt thing it would fly with Westeros authorities.

[Zorral]

What Israel’s plan to ‘encourage’ migration out of Gaza is actually about
Israel's policy regime and rhetoric suggests that an ethnic cleansing agenda could be underway.

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/israel-ethnic-cleansing-voluntary-migration-emigration-ben-gvir-rcna132378

... it’s a nice place, let’s make the desert bloom, it doesn’t come at anyone’s expense.’”

Hmmm ... when did we hear that before ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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.... Ben-Gvir’s prickly pushback underscores the extreme lopsidedness and moral folly of the U.S.’s relationship with Israel as it wreaks havoc in Gaza. The U.S. provides Israel with extraordinary financial and military assistance and diplomatic cover; President Joe Biden has even bypassed Congress multiple times to expedite weapons transfers to Israel. And, yet, when the U.S. offers the most modest pushback to Israeli language that suggests an ethnic cleansing project, Israel gives the U.S. the middle finger. It’s well past time for the U.S. to put an end to that imbalance.

Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich are the ultranationalist firebrands who’ve recently been pushing the envelope the most. “What needs to be done in the Gaza Strip is to encourage emigration,” Smotrich recently told Army Radio. “If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not 2 million Arabs, the entire discussion on the day after will be totally different.”

Smotrich also argued that the disappearance of most of Gaza’s population would permit Israelis to regenerate the war-torn enclave themselves: “Most of Israeli society will say, ‘Why not, it’s a nice place, let’s make the desert bloom, it doesn’t come at anyone’s expense.’” Ben-Gvir has also described the war as an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza” and a pretext for annexing territory. “We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” he said during a recent meeting with colleagues. ....

 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Im trying to imagine what so many Gazans can now do after 3/4's of all dwellings have been reduced to rubble?

"What percentage of homes in Gaza have been destroyed?"

 

 

Experts say the besieged strip is unrecognisable and its bombing is the most destructive in modern history.Dec 31, 2023

 

https://www.aljazeera.com › news

 

Israeli bombardment destroyed over 70% of Gaza homes: Report

 

Eta: Hamas' decision to carry out the terror attack has to be described as one of the most blunderous, short sighted and self destructive acts in recent memory.

 

Cannot think of anything gained and at such an epic cost to the Palestinians.

Edited January 8 by DireWolfSpirit

[Zorral]

Well, 100 persons have been arrested here this noon as part of a support of Palestinians protest blocking traffic to the bridges and Holland Tunnel.

One thing they've accomplished -- though there's no way to state it was their aim or even one of their aims -- yet it is another massive division and polarization in the US and in the US political field.  Which isn't good for Israel ultimately, no matter how that turns out. But good for extremists of all brands and flavors.  Hammas may well view this as a win.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/pro-palestinian-protests-block-new-york-city-bridges/story?

Edited January 8 by Zorral

[TrueMetis]

RE the debate in the last thread about how far Israel can go in the name of stopping Hamas, I have to wonder if the same standard would be applied if the PA in the West Bank decided to level every illegal settlement? After all, an enemy polity has marauded their citizenry, right next door. They cannot do nothing. I mean, does any of the justification Israel has for their attacks not apply to them? Given we've apparently decided that human shields means it's okay to just fucking kill them anyway I can't see any reason by Israeli logic not to turn them into blood baths. In fact, if Palestinians were setting up villages in towns and villages in Israel en masse with the publicly stated goal of harming Israel's ability to govern itself I can't imagine Israel even bothering with the human shield excuse, those people wouldn't be civilians, they would be invaders.

Underlying every "Israel cannot do nothing" retort (even though no one has actually asked them to do nothing, but let's not let honesty get in the way) is the fact that the PA must do nothing, for if they were to respond even slightly in the manner of Israel, the same force currently turned on Gaza would turn on them. And I have no doubt at all that Israel would be talking about the PA in the exact same terms as they do Hamas.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Hamas' decision to carry out the terror attack has to be described as one of the most blunderous, short sighted and self destructive acts in recent memory.

I have to disagree. I’ll start by repeating that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians. Then there’s the fact that they absolutely knew Israel would not only react but overreact and that they’d attack Gaza brutally. And here we are, w/ the eyes of the world turned to Gaza and Israel losing more and more support w/ each passing day, until we get to “and then there were none” when the US finally puts a stop to the slaughter of Palestinians. Not b/c the administration cares, but rather to avoid being dragged into a larger regional conflict. I’d say Hamas has achieved exactly what they wanted, mostly because Netanyahu and his goons are so disgusting in their bigotry and hatred that they played straight into Hamas’s hands. 

Edited January 8 by kissdbyfire
missing words

[Zorral]

More on the massive commuter shut-down this morning:

The protests were led by several groups, including the Palestinian Youth Movement, Jewish Voice for Peace and the Palestine Right to Return Coalition ...

https://gothamist.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-shut-down-brooklyn-manhattan-williamsburg-bridges-holland-tunnel

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Hundreds of people were arrested after pro-Palestinian protesters from several advocacy groups shut down the Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan Bridge, Williamsburg Bridge and Holland Tunnel for more than an hour during the Monday morning commute, NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Public Information Tarik Sheppard said.

Traffic was at a standstill at each of the four entry points to the city beginning at around 9:30 a.m., according to a NYPD spokesperson. By 11:15 a.m., police had arrested protesters at the various protests and traffic had resumed at the city's bridges and tunnel, a police spokesperson said.

In total, the NYPD had arrested 216 people and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey arrested 109, NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Public Information Tarik Sheppard told Gothamist on Monday afternoon.

The protests were led by several groups, including the Palestinian Youth Movement, Jewish Voice for Peace and the Palestine Right to Return Coalition, according to one protester and social media fliers announcing the event. Demonstrators called for an end to the Israeli bombardment on Gaza which has killed nearly 23,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza’s health ministry. Israel’s attacks follow the Hamas attack on Israel on Oct. 7, which killed about 1,200 people, according to Israeli officials. ....

 

However, I must state there is no better way to convince people to disagree with you than by holding up traffic.  People doing that are literally taking their lives in their hands in this part of the world.

Edited January 8 by Zorral

[DireWolfSpirit]

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have to disagree. I’ll start by repeating that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians. Then there’s the fact that they absolutely knew Israel would not only react but overreact and that they’d attack Gaza brutally. And here we are, w/ the eyes of the world turned to Gaza and Israel losing more and more support w/ each passing day, until we get to “and then there were none” when the US finally puts a stop to the slaughter of Palestinians. Not b/c the administration cares, but rather to avoid being dragged into a larger regional conflict. I’d say Hamas has achieved exactly what they wanted, mostly because Netanyahu and his goons are so disgusting in their bigotry and hatred that they played straight into Hamas’s hands. 

Well I'll give it some thought to see if I can follow thier logic, but I gotta say it sounds like some nonsensical reasoning.

Sacrifice the majority of a population to blacken your enemies eye, not much of a trade-off ffs.

[Jace, Extat]

@Kalbear

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Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Extat! 

 

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What does that matter? Does what someone else wants (not can do, but wants) justify any action? 

 

It matters when that group demonstrates follow-through and capacity of action. Hamas did that. Deterrence only works when potential aggressors believe that there will be consequences for their actions that actually threaten them. Ukraine, right now, is proof of this.

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To me this seems so absurdly reductionist and caustic. Especially the part about accepting any breaking of international laws to achieve aims. That's a very pragmatic, vigilante viewpoint and one i get, but it also should have consequences

Well, I suppose the greatest crime of Hamas then was exposing the post-WW2 world order as a polite fiction. 

I don't even mean to be glib by saying that. I thought everybody else knew. 

Maybe it bears repeating, but I don't mean to argue that Israel is morally unimpeachable or obeying international law... I'm arguing that they are behaving exactly the same as any other power would behave. Better, actually. At least better than America.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

But Jace, Israel is suppose to agree to a ceasefire in which Hamas is still allowed to attack. Because that's normal. 

[Rippounet]

I do find it normal to stand for human rights and democracy rather than condoning ethnic cleansing and potential genocide. I've always believed that defending human life and human dignity is the best way to resist fascism while, conversely, those who quack too loudly about security are always one terrorist attack away from donning a brown shirt.

Edited January 9 by Rippounet

[Jace, Extat]

 

I love you too, commie. 

[Zorral]

How is it these events take place, which began long before Oct. 7.

Settlers killed a Palestinian teen. Israeli forces didn’t stop it.
A review of the deadliest settler attack in the West Bank since the war began shows how increasingly violent tactics have gone unpunished

Gift link - https://wapo.st/3H9GI6i

My golly, there is an answer to this question.

1895 - Theodor Herzl's "Zionist Plan":

“[We shall] spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

1937 - "David Ben Gurion Plan":

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places ­ then we have force at our disposal.”

“after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “

1948 - Plan Dalet by David Ben Gurion ordered the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, prevented the return of Palestinians to their homes and repopulated Arab towns with Jewish immigrants.

“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return… The old will die and the young will forget.”

1967 – Koenig Memorandum -

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

1978 - Ariel Sharon Plan required building settlements along the north-south mountain ridge above Palestinian population centers, and then constructing a lateral road network that linked the settlements with major Israeli cities inside the 1967 borders.

1980 - Drobles Plan by the World Zionist Organization:

"the state-owned lands and the uncultivated barren lands in Judea and Samaria [West Bank] ought to be seized right away... Being cut off by Jewish settlements the minority population will find it difficult to form a territorial and political continuity."

2017 - Israel's "Decisive Plan" by Bezalel Smotrich: Making life intolerable will force many Palestinians to quit the country. “Victory by settlement,” Smotrich writes in his plan, will show the Palestinians they have no hope of ever obtaining a separate state.

[Zorral]

Israel, Shifting War Tempo, Tailors Its Messages for Home and Abroad
Israeli officials have told international journalists that they are starting to slow military operations in Gaza. But they have sought to assure the Israeli public that the war against Hamas will go on.

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/09/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-new-phase.html?unlocked_article_code=1.MU0.TF7d.IG0AX9ezoYlH&smid=url-share

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.... On Monday, the Israeli military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said in an interview with The New York Times that the war had entered a new phase, with Israel drawing down its troops, focusing on southern regions of Gaza and decreasing the number of airstrikes. Hours earlier, Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, had told The Wall Street Journal that Israel would soon transition from “intense maneuvering” toward “different types of special operations.”

Then, in his daily Hebrew-language press briefing on Monday night, Admiral Hagari responded to a question about his interview with The Times by saying that the goal of dismantling Hamas remained in place, and that the “semantics” of whether the war had entered a new phase “doesn’t serve the Israeli public.”

Separately, the Israeli news media reported that Mr. Gallant had told fellow right-wing lawmakers, in a closed-door meeting, that the war would continue “for many more months,” and for that to happen, Israel needed a “margin for international maneuver.” Mr. Gallant’s office confirmed the remarks. ....

.... While a majority of Israelis want to see Hamas destroyed after its brutal Oct. 7 raid on Israel, international public opinion has been turning against Israel. More than 23,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Israel began its offensive, according to the Gazan health ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants.

Adding to pressure on Israel is a hearing scheduled for this week at the International Court of Justice in a case, brought by South Africa, that accuses Israel of attempting a genocide against Palestinians. Israeli officials have strongly denied the allegation.

“With all these put together, Israel wants to put on an image of, ‘OK, we’ve taken the criticism, we’ve integrated and incorporated the remarks,’” Alon Pinkas, Israel’s former consul-general in New York and a political commentator, said in an interview.

By contrast, he said, the Israeli mainstream does not want to hear that the war is winding down while Hamas remains active in much of Gaza. Israelis, he added, “understand that very little has been achieved, if the idea was to eliminate or eradicate or obliterate or annihilate or topple Hamas.”

 

 

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

But Jace, Israel is suppose to agree to a ceasefire in which Hamas is still allowed to attack. Because that's normal. 

Israel could of got a better idea of the amount of hostage and who is or isn't one. A continual nightmare of a situation.

There would of been a better to discuss the actually post-war Gaza.

Able to better form a more wide coalation.

A time to pierce through Hamas and other propaganda to show Gazans full horrors on 07/10 and give some options. I do not deny this can be viewed as naive.

Fuck, just make the deal on hostage and prisoners. Even after the last swap, the only thing so far that brought the most alive, there are more Palestinian in imprison in the West Bank.

Mourn. yes mourn.

The Destruction that Israel can be brought in one of anytime. Those destructive capabilities offer and curse for a need to be deliberate.

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

But Jace, Israel is suppose to agree to a ceasefire in which Hamas is still allowed to attack. Because that's normal. 

That seems like a very extreme position to take - why are you advocating for a full cease fire? Don't you know what hamas did?

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Israel, Shifting War Tempo, Tailors Its Messages for Home and Abroad
Israeli officials have told international journalists that they are starting to slow military operations in Gaza. But they have sought to assure the Israeli public that the war against Hamas will go on.

Israeli government spokesperson Eylon Levy was on Tom Swarbrick’s programme on LBC yesterday taking questions from callers. I didn’t listen to the whole thing, but he lied and misrepresented things and told half-truths. It was a very clear attempt at laundering the Israeli government’s reputation, though I’m not sure he was successful in his endeavor.

[Darryk]

5 hours ago, Zorral said:

1895 - Theodor Herzl's "Zionist Plan":

“[We shall] spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

1937 - "David Ben Gurion Plan":

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places ­ then we have force at our disposal.”

“after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “

1948 - Plan Dalet by David Ben Gurion ordered the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, prevented the return of Palestinians to their homes and repopulated Arab towns with Jewish immigrants.

“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return… The old will die and the young will forget.”

The Arabs wanted to get rid of the Zionists who had been building a state there since the 1800s as well.

As shocking as those comments from Herzl and Gurion are, they have to be considered in the wider context of the tensions that had been building between Jews and Arabs in the region, making it clear the two communities couldn't co-exist peacefully.

The Hebron massacre is an example of an event that may have led Gurion to take the view he did.

[kissdbyfire]

Reporting from +972 on the detentions we saw photos of a few weeks back.

Someone tell the Palestinians they should be grateful for having been detained and held - w/o charge, of course - by the “most moral army in the world”! Just imagine what a lesser army would have done. /s

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According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.

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Maher recounted his experience to +972 and Local Call: “A soldier asked me, ‘What’s your name?’ and started punching me in the stomach and kicking me. He said, ‘You’ve been in Hamas for two years, tell me how they recruited you.’ I told him I was a student. Two soldiers opened my legs and punched me there and punched me in the face. I started coughing and realized that I wasn’t breathing. I told them, ‘I’m a civilian, I’m a civilian.’ 

“I remember reaching my hand down my body and feeling something heavy,” Maher continued. “I didn’t realize it was my leg. I stopped feeling my body. I told the soldier that it hurt, and he stopped and asked where; I told him in the stomach, and then he hit me hard in the stomach. They told me to get up. I couldn’t feel my legs and couldn’t walk. Every time I fell, they beat me again. My mouth and nose were bleeding, and I fainted.”

 

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In one case, Lubad said, a detainee who refused to kneel and lowered his hands instead of keeping them raised was taken behind the barbed wire fence with his hands cuffed. The detainees heard beatings, then heard the detainee cursing a soldier, and then a gunshot. They don’t know if the detainee was actually shot, or whether he is alive or dead; in any case, he did not return for the rest of the time that those we spoke to were held there.

 

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The Palestinians that Israel detains in Gaza, whether militants or civilians, are being held under the 2002 “Unlawful Combatants Law.” This Israeli law allows the state to hold enemy fighters without granting them prisoner of war status, and to detain them for extended periods of time without standard legal proceedings. Israel can prevent detainees from meeting with a lawyer and postpone judicial review for up to 75 days — or, if a judge approves it, up to six months.

After the outbreak of the current war in October, this law was amended: according to the version approved by the Knesset on Dec. 18, Israel can also hold such detainees for up to 45 days without issuing a detention order — a provision that has concerning ramifications.

“They don’t exist for 45 days,” Tal Steiner, the executive director of the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, told +972 and Local Call. “Their families are not notified. During this time, people can die and no one will know about it. [You have to] go prove it happened at all. A lot of people can just disappear.”

The Israeli human rights NGO HaMoked received calls from people in Gaza regarding 254 Palestinians who were detained by the Israeli army and whose relatives have no idea where they are. HaMoked petitionedIsrael’s High Court in late December, demanding that the military publish information about the Gaza residents it holds. 

 

[Zorral]

How Long Can Netanyahu Keep All the Plates Spinning?

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/how-long-can-netanyahu-keep-all-the-plates-spinning

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.... Do you see what I mean by the constant stealing from Peter to pay Paul? Stiff the U.S., toady to the Smotrich and Ben Gvir and think the UAE richies of all people will fund the high wire act for him?

Here’s Ravid’s reporting …

Netanyahu turned to MBZ a few weeks ago and broadly asked for help in regards to the Palestinians, the Israeli official and source with knowledge of the issue said … MBZ said he was ready to help, but when Netanyahu specifically asked if the UAE would be willing to pay the Palestinian workers, the Emirati president was stunned, the source with knowledge said.

They were willing to help — help the Palestinians, help Israel navigate the regional crisis, help the West Bank from exploding. But they weren’t willing to foot the bill for decisions Netanyahu was making simply to avoid confronting members of his own government.

Biden recently had a similar set-to with him. While refusing to accede to U.S. demands, Netanyahu pled to Biden that he couldn’t afford to offend the members of his coalition. Biden went off pointing out that Biden has all but spurred a civil war in the Democratic Party with his steadfast support for Israel. You can almost hear an exasperated Biden guffawing “C’mon, Man!” Biden reportedly hung up on him.

It’s all extemporization. Netanyahu also wants the Gulf states to fund rebuilding Gaza. And they’d probably be willing to do that. But they’ve made crystal clear that they’re not going to do it as long as Israel is refusing even to allow some limited version of self-government in Gaza, let alone a pathway towards a two state solution. ....

 

 

Edited January 9 by Zorral