Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[Zorral]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

can't find a single article that confirms this claim. 

You haven't looked, you haven't read.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Hamas does have to go, but bombing Gaza is not the way to do it.

And asking them to kindly leave isn't either. Like it or not a military solution is the best path. Now that doesn't justify everything Israel has done, a lot of it is really fucked up, but I don't see any other route to getting rid of them. 

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You haven't looked, you haven't read.

I literally just told you I looked it up. The highest number I saw was an estimation of 700. You can't use how all the dead at the end of the ceasefire were counted on the same day. So cite something that backs up your claim. 

[Jace, Extat]

59 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Damn Jace, and here I was starting to actually think that you were just messing with us, and that this was one of the most elaborate pranks the forum has ever seen. I'm kinda disappointed.

 

Not a prank, but perhaps an overindulgence in defensive aggression. And I'll admit to using rhetoric I wouldn't normally deploy out of a desire to function as -from my perspective- a necessary antagonist to the one-sided perspective of Israel that we've had in these threads. 

But as a very wise lurker may or may not have informed me, it's possible that I've let my passions get the better of me.

[fionwe1987]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

They did negotiate, after they got their asses kicked. That's the real world. And then Hamas refused to give more hostages that Israel wanted, so the fighting restarted. 

So let me get this right. Hamas got their asses kicked. So they exchanged a few hostages, those they felt ok to release, for Palestinian prisoners in Israel. And their asses were so kicked they refused to release other hostages, that Israel most certainly wanted, and decided instead to continue fighting?

Do you manage to hold a straight face when you make claims like this? 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So let me get this right. Hamas got their asses kicked. So they exchanged a few hostages, those they felt ok to release, for Palestinian prisoners in Israel. And their asses were so kicked they refused to release other hostages, that Israel most certainly wanted, and decided instead to continue fighting?

Do you manage to hold a straight face when you make claims like this? 

 

Go back and read their original demands. It's a far cry from the deal that was made. The war caused that. 

[Proudfeet]

ROE for the IDF: Topless people waving a white flag approaching them = possibility of an ambush = within ROE.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/

If this is okay, what else is? What wouldn't be? 

[GrimTuesday]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And asking them to kindly leave isn't either. Like it or not a military solution is the best path. Now that doesn't justify everything Israel has done, a lot of it is really fucked up, but I don't see any other route to getting rid of them.

No, it isn't. All the military solution is going to do is make things more desperate, and when people are desperate, bad shit happens. Improving people's material conditions is the best way to actually bring peace, and Israel is perpetually doing the opposite. They're the definition of We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas.

[fionwe1987]

42 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Go back and read their original demands. It's a far cry from the deal that was made. The war caused that. 

Really? You're certain no negotiation strategy could have cause that, and mass displacement and civilian death is the only way Hamas would have brought down its demands? While simultaneously not giving a damn about the Palestinian civilians?

[House Balstroko]

4 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

she doesnt think palestinians are legetimate citizens of israel, at least she is honest. that is the reality of the millions living in the best democracy of the middle east, when they say that israel is not really an appartheid state cuz of the palestinians living in israel, this is the reallity of it, they are not israeli citizens they are temporarly living in israeli territory.

and this is not the first time jace has gone masks off, she is a liberal after all, she is with us, she is a realist! 

The million + Arabs living within Israel are Israeli citizens. Those in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not Israeli citizens, as those territories were acquired later and are not legally part of Israel. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

The million + Arabs living within Israel are Israeli citizens. Those in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not Israeli citizens, as those territories were acquired later and are not legally part of Israel. 

What will happen to the citizenship of Arab Israel if their demographic end up threatening a closer parity with the Jewish population?

[House Balstroko]

13 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

What will happen to the citizenship of Arab Israel if their demographic end up threatening a closer parity with the Jewish population?

Possibly the same thing that happened to Jews in other Arab countries. There are already large segments of Jews in Israel who are in favour of expelling them. I hope that doesn’t happen. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, House Balstroko said:

Possibly the same thing that happened to Jews in other Arab countries. There are already large segments of Jews in Israel who are in favour of expelling them. I hope that doesn’t happen. 

If your citizenship is so conditional than you are never been seen as one.

 

The historical fact is that Jews from Arab nation was very essential for Israel growth, and in securing the demographic numbers Jewish State. Israel policy is still for Aliyah and that was still in what Israel would of wanted. Though I understand the propaganda. 

 

There needs to be a mechanism of review and means of reproachment with the Mizrahi and those Arab nations for I do think it is important for whatever desire remains for Israel to be part of the region. Those who want to be most fervently Anti-Israel minimize them is horrible

I just think the comparison with the Nabka are very woefully short and are not the same.

One of the reason my Dad's parents did not make Aliyah was how my Grandfather felt Ashkenazi treated the Mizahi. My Grandpa it was Racist, and that was from his trip in '62. Well, good things for Arab and Palestinian so some common identity can be formed.

[Kalbear]

17 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

Hostages. They got half of 'em back by their actions.

This has been brought up repeatedly, but citation really fucking needed. There is very little indication that Israel prioritized getting hostages back (the negotiations were largely led by the US, not Israel) and Hamas had been willing to negotiate to give back the hostages since Oct 8th. 

And yes, Hamas didn't get as much as they asked for, but not by a significant amount; they asked for a ceasefire for hostages and that's exactly what they got. 

17 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

Then you need to move your feet. Israel got as many back as possible as fast as possible. 

Again, citation very much needed. 

As an example of this not being actually factually true, here's a report from Vox:
 

Quote

This is a deal that has essentially been on the table for about a month, and according to the Guardian, negotiations were already happening before Israel launched its ground attacks on Gaza. Israel had defined its twin objectives as eliminating Hamas and bringing the hostages back, but experts noted that the former had been the priority until political dynamics led to an increased willingness among Israeli leadership to accept a truce to bring some hostages home. “Public pressure led Netanyahu to agree to a deal that he refused until now,” journalist Yossi Verter wrote in Haaretz’s Hebrew edition.

 

Edited January 17 by Kalbear

[Kalbear]

Also going back to actual news: Gaza has been in an internet and communication blackout for 5 days now:

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-17-24/h_045be6c3747fcf5ea2a7f909ce7975b7

A large part of this is because the telecom workers keep coming under attack when attempting to repair things; I believe at this point 13 workers have been killed.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Heres yet another story of why I tend to view this conflict as permanent and one that will never end-

https://nypost.com/2024/01/17/news/israeli-dad-says-hamas-tried-to-sell-sons-decapitated-head/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Heres yet another story of why I tend to view this conflict as permanent and one that will never end-

https://nypost.com/2024/01/17/news/israeli-dad-says-hamas-tried-to-sell-sons-decapitated-head/?utm_source=url_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons

 

 

Why are you reading the New York Post, that bastion of journalism excellence one of the very worst media outlets in a sea of really shite media outlets?

[Kalbear]

16 hours ago, Zorral said:

You haven't looked, you haven't read.

Also, I have looked and read and I also cannot find a single thing that indicates that Israel killed more people in one day than Hamas did on 7-10. The only thing that you can vaguely get at is the massive jump in deaths reported that happened during the ceasefire in November, when the gaza health ministry was able to start counting more people. That resulted in a statistical increase of like 3000 on one day, but no one believes that during the ceasefire Israel killed 3000 people. 

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That resulted in a statistical increase of like 3000 on one day,

I thought we were discussing the attacks on hospitals, not number of casualties in a single day!

Nevertheless that atrocity within and upon Israel happened once.  Yet the Holocaust is invoked; we are demanded to see this as the same as the Holocaust -- recall, I didn't say that. We know who did though.

These casualties In Gaza are nearly every single day -- and those aren't counting those who die from injuries and maiming, starvation, untreated diseases, etc.  Not to mention the casualties inflicted upon Palestinians within Israel and the West Banks. -- and the multiples of all these, and the degraded treatment of everyday life, whimsical imprisonment and theft, which  have been going on for decades.  Maybe there are those who think none that matters within this horror of atrocity after atrocity, but yes it does. It certainly mounts up the numbers.

This is what the world is objecting to.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

I thought we were discussing the attacks on hospitals, not number of casualties in a single day!

You said:

Quote

Israel has killed more innocent people, intentionally, in one day than that one day.

And that's what people were responding to. Nothing about hospitals or anything like that.

 

[Clueless Northman]

16 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

ROE for the IDF: Topless people waving a white flag approaching them = possibility of an ambush = within ROE.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/

If this is okay, what else is? What wouldn't be? 

You forgot: "topless Hebrew-speaking redhead people waving a white flag". Because, as is well-known, that's an apt desription of your average Hamas goon...