International Events : How I learnt to stop worrying and love the-

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

But American policy to the war had a lot of questionable choices.

Yes.  The US should have backed and supported Ukraine to the hilt from the beginning.  The dribs and drabs designed to keep the Russians from going nuclear have killed more people… both Ukrainian and Russian.

I will say this about Gaza.  The Israelis don’t need American arms to do what they are doing and I think the Israelis are going we too far in their attacks and the number of Palestinian deaths, the deliberate use of hunger and illness as a weapon are way beyond the pale. 

However, Hamas’ deliberate targeting of civilians in the initial attack (two hundred murdered at a concert) is absolutely unacceptable too.  People claiming things like “there are no civilian Israelis” are absolutely wrong.  Holding Israel to one standard while making excuses for Hamas murders, rapes, and kidnapping is unacceptable.

If these tactics are unacceptable they are unacceptable for all belligerents.

[TheLastWolf]

36 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

What does this mean? Speak!

Fortunately I had the chance to have a look at your umm... content here on the board, couldn't tell when you were joking or serious. Either way I'll refrain  

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  The US should have backed and supported Ukraine to the hilt from the beginning.  The dribs and drabs designed to keep the Russians from going nuclear have killed more people… both Ukrainian and Russian.

I will say this about Gaza.  The Israelis don’t need American arms to do what they are doing and I think the Israelis are going we too far in their attacks and the number of Palestinian deaths, the deliberate use of hunger and illness as a weapon are way beyond the pale. 

However, Hamas’ deliberate targeting of civilians in the initial attack (two hundred murdered at a concert) is absolutely unacceptable too.  People claiming things like “there are no civilian Israelis” are absolutely wrong.  Holding Israel to one standard while making excuses for Hamas murders, rapes, and kidnapping is unacceptable.

If these tactics are unacceptable they are unacceptable for all belligerents.

All true. And yet, the US is saying it will sanction the ICC and its/some of its prosecutors if they issue arrest warrants for Israeli officials b/c “the icc has no jurisdiction”. Why? Israel isn't a member. Know who else isn’t a member? I’ll give you a clue: the non member in question was committing war crimes left and right. Remember now, when the US threatened to sanction the icc b/c it had no jurisdiction over Russia? Exactly, the icc was lauded and celebrated then. 
There is no explanation that washes away the rank hypocrisy. 
 

And before anyone gets any ideas, I don’t think Putin belongs in jail, he belongs 6 feet under.

 

Edited May 5 by kissdbyfire

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All true. And yet, the US is saying it will sanction the ICC and its/some of its prosecutors if they issue arrest warrants for Israeli officials b/c “the icc has no jurisdiction”. Why? Israel isn't a member. Know who else isn’t a member? I’ll give you a clue: the non member in question was committing war crimes left and right. Remember now, when the US threatened to sanction the icc b/c other had no jurisdiction over Russia? Exactly, the icc was lauded and celebrated then. 
There is no explanation that washes away the rank hypocrisy. 
 

And before anyone gets any ideas, I don’t think Putin belongs in jail, he belongs 6 feet under.

 

It’s realpolitik.  And the US hypocrisy in lobbying for the creation of the ICC then refusing to ratify the treaty giving the ICC jurisdiction over US actions is obvious for all to see.  

If we want to make some actions “illegal” in war then we need to create consistent consequences for those actions when they are taken regardless of who is taking the action.

If the US wants to move beyond 19th century Great Power politics we need to endorse international mechanisms to punish those who engage in 19th century “politics by other means” consistently and not offer cover to allies merely because they are allies.

Long term change will come only when we get out of the way of long term change coming.

Edited May 5 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If we want to make some actions “illegal” in war then we need to create consistent consequences for those actions when they are taken regardless of who is taking the action.

 

This x 1,000,000.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

What does this mean? Speak!

Giving an order to a decent human being as though you are a dog trainer to a dog does not win respect.

Edited May 5 by Zorral

[Altherion]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If we want to make some actions “illegal” in war then we need to create consistent consequences for those actions when they are taken regardless of who is taking the action.

How do you intend to do this when you don't have any power over the people who flagrantly break the law? The most you can do is put limits on what can be done by yourself and your allies -- there is some argument for doing this, but as we have seen over and over again, such limits will be exploited by enemies who don't share your values (e.g. if you put limits on attacking civilians, the enemy will deliberately intermingle military infrastructure with civilians so your army's job becomes a lot harder and the civilians die anyway).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Altherion said:

How do you intend to do this when you don't have any power over the people who flagrantly break the law? The most you can do is put limits on what can be done by yourself and your allies -- there is some argument for doing this, but as we have seen over and over again, such limits will be exploited by enemies who don't share your values (e.g. if you put limits on attacking civilians, the enemy will deliberately intermingle military infrastructure with civilians so your army's job becomes a lot harder and the civilians die anyway).

By limiting the movement of leaders who violate these laws.  For example Putin is essentially limited to Russia.  He cannot travel to a nation participating in the ICC without risking arrest.  That will cost him as time passes as well as making him look weak.

[DMC]

48 minutes ago, Altherion said:

How do you intend to do this when you don't have any power over the people who flagrantly break the law?

…Um, that’s what centuries of international law have been trying to develop.  It’ll never be perfect, of course, but the institutions would have far greater teeth with legitimate buy-in from the most powerful state in the world.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

39 minutes ago, DMC said:

…Um, that’s what centuries of international law have been trying to develop.  It’ll never be perfect, of course, but the institutions would have far greater teeth with legitimate buy-in from the most powerful state in the world.

This.

[Zorral]

Israel seized Al-Jazeera's equipment and offices, including stealing people's personal phones and devices, and have prohibited them from any and all operation within Israel.

The Foreign Press Association and many others, including Haaretz and other Israeli groups condemned this action:

There was also some political opposition in Israel to the move, or at least its timing. The National Unity party, a centrist member of the ruling coalition, said that coming as ceasefire talks appeared close to failing, it could “sabotage efforts” to free Israeli hostages in Gaza.

As does the UN's Human Rights Councile and 

Quote

 

The Committee to Protect Journalists had called on Israeli authorities not to impose a ban when it was first proposed it October, saying that a “plurality of media voices is essential in order to hold power to account, especially in times of war.”

Israel’s Foreign Press Association said the move to shutter Al Jazeera was “cause for concern for all supporters of a free press.”

“With this decision, Israel joins a dubious club of authoritarian governments to ban the station,” the group said. “We urge the government to reverse this harmful step and uphold its commitment to freedom of the press — including outlets whose coverage it may not like.”

 

This also, of course, causes the ceasefire talks in Egypt to 'falter' as the press is describing it.  Color us not surprised.  Not a bug the the reason.

Recall Israel has the gall to tell the world there is no starvation in Gaza.  Nor is it allowing any journalists into Gaza now, except its own.

Ayup -- that signal of a democracy, a free press, not allowed to exist.

ETA: O gods!  Hamas launched an attack on the crossing through which most aid truck come into Gaza.  O that was stupid.  Not to mention cruel, ugly and unnecessary.  Now they played into Bibi's hands, where before he was playing into theirs.

Edited May 5 by Zorral

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

32 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Hamas launched an attack on the crossing through which most aid truck come into Gaza.  O that was stupid.  Not to mention cruel, ugly and unnecessary.  Now they played into Bibi's hands, where before he was playing into theirs.

Hamas doesn’t want peace.  They want to destroy Israel.  Every time they attack Israel goes so far over the top it hurts Israel.  

Why wouldn’t Hamas do this.  It will prevent Bibi from stopping… which helps Hamas.

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Hamas doesn’t want peace.  They want to destroy Israel.  Every time they attack Israel goes so far over the top it hurts Israel.  

Why wouldn’t Hamas do this.  It will prevent Bibi from stopping… which helps Hamas.

Israel / Bibi is equally culpable. Let us not take our eyes from that ball while looking at the other culpable ball.

[Altherion]

49 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

By limiting the movement of leaders who violate these laws.  For example Putin is essentially limited to Russia.  He cannot travel to a nation participating in the ICC without risking arrest.  That will cost him as time passes as well as making him look weak.

Do you think that this has deterred him to any extent whatsoever? As far as I can tell, it has not had any effect at all.

Soft power is useful, but only when people actually value legitimate trade, travel and other interactions. Otherwise, it does not do much beyond creating a nuisance. For example:

Quote

On 2 January, a young Ukrainian weapons inspector, Khrystyna Kimachuk, got word that an unusual-looking missile had crashed into a building in the city of Kharkiv.

...

Ms Kimachuk works for Conflict Armament Research (CAR), an organisation that retrieves weapons used in war, to work out how they were made. But it wasn't until after she had finished photographing the wreckage of the missile and her team analysed its hundreds of components, that the most jaw-dropping revelation came.

It was bursting with the latest foreign technology. Most of the electronic parts had been manufactured in the US and Europe over the past few years. There was even a US computer chip made as recently as March 2023. This meant that North Korea had illicitly procured vital weapons components, snuck them into the country, assembled the missile, and shipped it to Russia in secret, where it had then been transported to the frontline and fired - all in a matter of months.

"This was the biggest surprise, that despite being under severe sanctions for almost two decades, North Korea is still managing to get its hands on all it needs to make its weapons, and with extraordinary speed," said Damien Spleeters, the deputy director at CAR.

Neither Russia nor North Korea nor Hamas nor the Houthis nor any of the other powers and groups that flagrantly violate international law care at all about our norms and conventions and imposing further limits on ourselves and our allies is not going to change this.

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Altherion said:

care at all about our norms and conventions

Well, if you are honest, hardly anyone in Congress and many other US "respected institutions" do either.

[Zorral]

RECORD NUMBER OF WRITERS JAILED WORLDWIDE IN 2023
For the first time, Israel and Russia rank among the top ten jailers of writers

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

May 1, 2024

https://pen.org/press-release/record-number-of-writers-jailed-worldwide-in-2023/

The top ten jailers of writers in 2023 are China (including autonomous regions) with 107, Iran 49, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam each with 19, Israel (including the Occupied Palestinian Territory) with 17, Belarus and Russia each with 16, Türkiye 14, Myanmar 12, and Eritrea seven. 

[DMC]

32 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Do you think that this has deterred him to any extent whatsoever? As far as I can tell, it has not had any effect at all.

Well, we haven’t had a world war in 80 years.  And indeed, the ICC has prosecuted numerous war criminals.  Slobodan Milosevic died in his cell in The Hague, and he didn’t care at all about our norms or conventions either.

If your standard is “bad people and bad governments still do bad things,” then sure, there’s no way any international org is ever gonna stop everything.  Just like no amount of law enforcement is going to stop all crime.

[The Anti-Targ]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

 

Neither Russia nor North Korea nor Hamas nor the Houthis nor any of the other powers and groups that flagrantly violate international law care at all about our norms and conventions and imposing further limits on ourselves and our allies is not going to change this.

None of these countries or groups got their hands on any sanctioned tech without someone in the countries that produce it, or legally trade it being the point of origin. A US made chip can only have the USA as a point of origin. So perhaps people who worry about such things should be thinking about their own citizens flagrantly violating international law and not giving a crap about "our" norms and conventions.

Not that I'm putting this forward as an actual conspiracy, but I can imagine rationale whereby the US and some of its allies would prefer to have black market trade in chips and other high tech weapons stuff made by them  because if they keep some track of that illicit trade they have quite a good idea about how many high tech weapons these rogue entities and enemies have. If they were to completely starve even the black market trade (assuming it's even possible), the concern might be that they could start creating their own manufacturing infrastructure for own chips and other tech, then the US would completely lose track of what these entities have.

[Darzin]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

By limiting the movement of leaders who violate these laws.  For example Putin is essentially limited to Russia.  He cannot travel to a nation participating in the ICC without risking arrest.  That will cost him as time passes as well as making him look weak.

Putin can go anywhere not in the collective West.

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, Darzin said:

Putin can go anywhere not in the collective West.

He cancelled his trip to South Africa when they made it clear they'd have to arrest him as they are members. Of the members respecting the Rome Statute, 33 are in Africa, 19 are in the Asia-Pacific  and 28 are from Latin America and the Caribbean. 124 countries and international entities are members of the ICC, which is considerably more than half the countries in the world.