Treatments for trans children and politics, world-wide

[TrackerNeil]

19 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

CIS Athletes that aren't good enough don't get to make it to the olympics/top level sport, I don't follow this argument. 

Right. And I don't get to play in little league baseball because I am an adult. Some things in sports are categorized because it makes sense, and just because we categorize according to some traits--like sex or age--doesn't mean we have to categorize according to every imaginable one. 

Edited April 24 by TrackerNeil

[BigFatCoward]

10 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

However, IMHO, the "such is life" comment seems to be a snub that precludes trans women from competing in gender-appropriate athletics not on the basis of being good enough but simply because they are trans. 

Its not because they are trans per se that they are being excluded, and I think you know that.  

 

 

[karaddin]

27 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

CIS Athletes that aren't good enough don't get to make it to the olympics/top level sport, I don't follow this argument. 

Being born trans is a quirk of genetics/epigenetics much like many other things. It carries with it a hell of a cost for your life, and we get the added bonus of being told any advantage we happen to wrangle from that is unfair and makes us cheaters. 

The only thing that says the remnant advantages in sport that trans women may retain are unfair is a social construct. Unless the advantage is so extreme that there's not actually a contest, and no amount of studies are going to prove that because its patently not the reality of the handful of trans women that still want to fucking try despite what the world thinks of us.

---

I'm so glad I wasted so much fucking time today on a post that didn't only talk about whether transition removes all advantage or not just for everyone to ignore it. 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

10 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Its not because they are trans per se that they are being excluded, and I think you know that.  

IMHO, "per se" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. 

 

16 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Right. And I don't get to play in little league baseball because I am an adult. Some things in sports are categorized because it makes sense, and just because we categorize according to some traits--like sex or age--doesn't mean we have to categorize according to every imaginable one. 

And the implied logic goes that trans women don't get to compete in women's sports because they aren't actually women. 

Edited April 24 by Matrim Fox Cauthon

[Liffguard]

48 minutes ago, Ran said:

As trans people become a larger part of the population, there's no great reason there can't be sports divisions for them specifically, not unlike how we see for various functional disabilities at the Paralympics.

I know it's not your intention to imply being trans is a disability, but this is still an extremely unfortunate comparison.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Just now, Liffguard said:

I know it's not your intention to imply being trans is a disability, but this is still an extremely unfortunate comparison.

It's not so much implying that trans is a disability, but, instead, he's just saying that trans athletes should get their own Special Olympics because they have no legitimate place in the actual Olympics. 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

I know it's not your intention to imply being trans is a disability

It obviously isn't. If I had said "other functional disabilities", I'd be saying that, but I am not. 

Stop looking for reasons to be offended, please.

 

2 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

he's just saying that trans athletes should get their own Special Olympics because they have no legitimate place in the actual Olympics. 

Nope. Is being mendacious so easily come to you? I'd already cited at least one Olympic sport where trans athletes aren't at all an issue.

But who here takes issue with a Trans Olympics for those sports where it is in fact an issue? I wouldn't. 

Edited April 24 by Ran

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Nope. Is being mendacious so easily come to you?

Not as easily as ad hominems come to you. 

 

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I'd already cited at least one Olympic sport where trans athletes aren't at all an issue.

Ah, yes. You cited competitive horse jumping. How gracious of you! 

[BigFatCoward]

17 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Being born trans is a quirk of genetics/epigenetics much like many other things. It carries with it a hell of a cost for your life, and we get the added bonus of being told any advantage we happen to wrangle from that is unfair and makes us cheaters. 

 

As i said in a previous post, i don't think they are cheaters in the slightest, i don't think anyone would ever go through the process to gain an unfair advantage.  

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

As i said in a previous post, i don't think they are cheaters in the slightest, i don't think anyone would ever go through the process to gain an unfair advantage.  

Sorry the split in my post should have been before the second paragraph, that wasn't wasn't meant to be directed at you.

[karaddin]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

But who here takes issue with a Trans Olympics for those sports where it is in fact an issue? I wouldn't. 

I would. Fuck "separate but supposedly equal" here just as much as for same sex marriage. Putting some rainbow glitter on it won't disguise it as anything other than what it is.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I would. Fuck "separate but supposedly equal" here just as much as for same sex marriage. Putting some rainbow glitter on it won't disguise it as anything other than what it is.

So the athletes in the Special Olympics and Paralympics are just some "rainbow glitter"? 

This says a lot more about how you see them than you seem to realize.

Edited April 24 by Ran

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Fucking hell, there are so few trans athletes at the lowest levels. It's not actually impacting sports. When the governor of Utah of all places can see that you should know something else is happening. 
 

Quote

There are four transgender players out of 85,000 who are competing in school sports after being ruled eligible by the state’s high school athletic association. There are no public concerns about competitive advantages. Only one competes in girls’ sports.

Utah governor becomes latest to veto transgender sports ban - POLITICO

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Just now, Ran said:

So the athletes in the Special Olympics are just some "rainbow glitter"? 

This says a lot more about how you see them than you seem to realize.

Just like how your comments in this thread speaks volumes about how you see trans women. 

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

So the athletes in the Special Olympics are just some "rainbow glitter"? 

This says a lot more about how you see them than you seem to realize.

That's pretty obviously not what is being said here.

What a disappointing set of posts that you've made here. 

[BigFatCoward]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Fucking hell, there are so few trans athletes at the lowest levels. It's not actually impacting sports. When the governor of Utah of all places can see that you should know something else is happening. 
 

Utah governor becomes latest to veto transgender sports ban - POLITICO

Yeah, even though i don't think trans women should compete at the highest level - Olmpics/WC's etc, at the fun/fitness level I have no problem.  

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

Just like how your comments in this thread speaks volumes about how you see trans women. 

How do I see them? Say it plainly, please. You're allowed to call me a transphobe, if you feel that fits the bill.

4 minutes ago, Week said:

That's pretty obviously not what is being said here.

Is it? I find it hard to read anything other than a rejection of the idea that trans athletes may need to have their own sports divisions to be able to compete fairly. This goes for transmen, too, who, bless them, compete in male sports with no real complaints despite the fact that they know they are (in most sports) at serious disadvantage.

  

Just now, BigFatCoward said:

Yeah, even though i don't think trans women should compete at the highest level - Olmpics/WC's etc, at the fun/fitness level I have no problem.  

Ditto. I've no particular idea what sports are at issue. But in general, the US has a history of legislation that relates to sex in sports (Title IX) and recognizes that there's a reason for a division of the sexes in many sports.

Edited April 24 by Ran

[karaddin]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

So the athletes in the Special Olympics and Paralympics are just some "rainbow glitter"? 

This says a lot more about how you see them than you seem to realize.

The Paralympics is made up of different events for people that have physical impediments to playing the sport exactly the same as the regular Olympics, there's nothing wrong or shameful about it. I'm not the one trying to say they're remotely comparable, and I'm also not the one engaging in any ad hominems here but you seem quite happy to instantly seize upon a chance to have a crack at my character.

I've been denied rights before, and I'd rather honestly go without until the injustice can be corrected rather than take an insulting appeasement that will delay or prevent redressing that. That's exactly what my last post was saying.

[DMC]

34 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm so glad I wasted so much fucking time today on a post that didn't only talk about whether transition removes all advantage or not just for everyone to ignore it. 

I know you weren’t referring to everyone here, but just wanted to let you know I very much appreciated your detailed thoughts on the subject.  I particularly thought the below sounds to me like a very reasonable compromise for those that have concerns:

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

You must undergo x treatments for y years to be allowed to compete in women's sport. The main one here is hormone therapy and the standard timeframe I've seen for that is 2 years. The research that indicates this is sufficient to eliminate significant unfair advantages is what aligns with my own personal experience and there has not been a sudden avalanche of trans women winning in sports which implement this policy. It attempts to balance the rights of the minority with fairness towards the majority and is the option I favour, and it has the variables of what treatment is required and how long they need to be maintained which can be tweaked if future research requires updates to the criteria.

 

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The Paralympics is made up of different events for people that have physical impediments to playing the sport exactly the same as the regular Olympics, there's nothing wrong or shameful about it.

Then what's shameful or wrong about Trans Olympics? 

People are fooling themselves into thinking that hormone suppression is all you need to level the playing field between transwomen and ciswomen, in many sports. Per the study I noted earlier, hormone suppression and estrogen therapy for transwomen soldiers lowered their run time advantage over ciswomen from 12% to ... 9%. Because length of stride, narrowness of hips and angle of motion, etc., all play a factor in these things, and they don't go away due to hormones.

Height and length of reach matters in a lot of sporting events. Transwomen will on average have advantages there, and in other areas, and it has to do with their natal sex and puberty.There's just ... you know, a lot of things that goes into why we separate the sports between the sexes, and it's not just testosterone, but the whole process of androgenizing. 

ETA: Of course, re: puberty, it's reasonable to allow transwomen athletes who transitioned before puberty and never went  through male puberty, which is I believe the current rule as it applies to the Olympics. This raises some entirely different questions and issues, but it seems, in terms of science and common sense both, a reasonable approach until such time as either we learn more and differently or we develop other means to permit competitive participation.

Edited April 24 by Ran