Do you agree that Lothar Frey is Near Pure Evil?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

Lothar Frey is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki. Here is what he has done:

• He is the one who acts as an envoy and goes to Riverrun to invite Robb, Catelyn, Edmure and their bannermen to come to the Twins while acting friendly to them.
• He and Roose Bolton plan out all the little details regarding the Red Wedding and how it would proceed down to what songs would be performed and in what order. This makes Lothar one of the main orchestrators of the Red Wedding and gives him a huge part of the responsibility for one of the most horrible massacres and violations of guest rights where around 3500 are killed while they are guests of House Frey.
• He organizes the rest of the Freys and tells each of them what their role would be during the Red Wedding. For example, he gives Merrett Frey the task of getting the strong Jon Umber so drunk that he wouldn't be able to fight back when the Red Wedding starts.
• He makes sure that the tents would collapse when the Red Wedding starts by slicing their ropes and also puts crossbowmen among the musicians in the gallery, so the guests would be caught by surprise when they start shooting at them.
• Unlike his father, Walder Frey, it's unclear if he has any affection for the rest of his family.

And here is the reason why he can't qualify as Pure Evil:

• He fails the Heinous Standards to his own father, Walder Frey, because the Red Wedding is Walder's idea and Lothar is just organizing the details around it because his father has asked that of him. However, he still stands out from the other Freys because he and Roose Bolton are the people who have planned how everything would proceed down to the smallest details, making him one of the main architects behind it, and he was also the one to personally invite Robb Stark and his bannermen to the Twins, which means he is still heinous enough to be Near Pure Evil.

So, do you agree with the decision to list Lothar Frey as Near Pure Evil or not?

Edited April 23 by boltons are sick

[The Gizzard of Oz]

You don't think that wiki was written by people with a bias?  I will hold my opinions on the wiki itself until I have checked it out myself.  

Jaime Lannister is more evil.  Lothar's family was insulted by the Starks and it was Tywin Lannister who wanted to stop the rebellion and bring order back to the kingdom.  If Lothar is Near Pure Evil then Jaime should be on the Pure Evil list.  

[boltons are sick]

2 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

You don't think that wiki was written by people with a bias?  I will hold my opinions on the wiki itself until I have checked it out myself.  

Jaime Lannister is more evil.  Lothar's family was insulted by the Starks and it was Tywin Lannister who wanted to stop the rebellion and bring order back to the kingdom.  If Lothar is Near Pure Evil then Jaime should be on the Pure Evil list.  

Basically, the ASOIAF characters who are on these wikis are listed like that (I am not going to list everyone from the Villainous Benchmark wiki because it has too many examples for me to list):

Pure Evil: Joffrey Baratheon, Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Rorge, Craster, Euron Greyjoy and Maegor Targaryen

Near Pure Evil: Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, Petyr Baelish, Walder Frey, Lothar Frey, Kraznys mo Nakloz, Janos Slynt, Varamyr Sixskins, Aerys Targaryen, Rossart, Lo Bu, Joron I Blacktyde, Khal Moro and Wyl of Wyl

Inconsistently Heinous: Cersei Lannister and Tyrion Lannister

Villainous Benchmark: Theon Greyjoy, Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane and many others

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I understand he lost his head as he watched his mother die.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

34 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Basically, the ASOIAF characters who are on these wikis are listed like that (I am not going to list everyone from the Villainous Benchmark wiki because it has too many examples for me to list):

Pure Evil: Joffrey Baratheon, Ramsay Bolton, Gregor Clegane, Rorge, Craster, Euron Greyjoy and Maegor Targaryen

Near Pure Evil: Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, Petyr Baelish, Walder Frey, Lothar Frey, Kraznys mo Nakloz, Janos Slynt, Varamyr Sixskins, Aerys Targaryen, Rossart, Lo Bu, Joron I Blacktyde, Khal Moro and Wyl of Wyl

Inconsistently Heinous: Cersei Lannister and Tyrion Lannister

Villainous Benchmark: Theon Greyjoy, Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane and many others

Even this reduced list has questionable choices.  I haven't seen the criteria but looking at the names on the lists who I think belong together.  Arya and Joffrey should be on the same category.  Near Pure Evil.  And Craster is not a Pure Evil.  Craster is his own man and living outside of Westeros and therefore outside its laws.  Marrying his daughters deprive them of choice but how many children actually get to choose their husbands and wives until the modern age.  His sacrifices to his gods is bad but the Starks do it too.  Nothing Craster did is any worse than what Jaime Lannister does consistently.  Craster never killed his king.  He's not broken an oath as far as we know.  Nor did he ever try to pass off his children as heirs to kings.  Craster is cleaner than Jaime.  Theon is dirtier than Craster by a large margin.  Bronn is Near Pure Evil.  Bronn and Arya are the same.  Roose belongs to Pure Evil.  The Green Grace and Ramsay join Roose on the list.  

Edited April 23 by The Gizzard of Oz

[James Steller]

Tywin is pure evil. I will stand by that opinion. 

[House Cambodia]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Tywin is pure evil. I will stand by that opinion. 

He was strategic. In conjunction with his propensity to massacre and lay waste to the kingdom, we should factor in as Hand he kept the kingdom peaceful for almost the whole of Aerys' reign.

[House Cambodia]

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

He fails the Heinous Standards to his own father, Walder Frey, because the Red Wedding is Walder's idea and Lothar is just organizing the details around it because his father has asked that of him. However, he still stands out from the other Freys because he and Roose Bolton are the people who have planned how everything would proceed down to the smallest details, making him one of the main architects behind it

Yeh, that doesn't give him a pass here. It's like saying Hitler should be blamed for the Holocaust, but his SS deputies 'were only following orders'.

[SeanF]

Lothar is - like Walder - wholly despicable.

@The Gizzard of Oz- raping one’s own children and grandchildren,  and sacrificing one’s sons - is as evil as it gets.  In this world, as well as our own.

Edited April 24 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

Do you agree we should stop basing moral decisions on a subjective wiki and instead use our own skill of reading the book to draw a conclusion for ourselves? It's not like this is even a particularly hard case.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

I don't think Lothar is pure evil, he is just an intelligent and cunning guy with poor moral. If it benefits him he will do it.

I genuinely like the idea of Lothar ending up Lord of the Crossing. This is based on the "Frey civil war" idea where Edwyn and Black Walder split the Frey family in two factions after the death of Lord Walder, each controlling one of the castles for a time and some Freys dying during the conflict and culminating with Lame Lothar on top at the end.

 

The current Frey line of succession for the Twins is:

Lord Walder > Stevron > Ryman > Edwyn > Walda^1, 5 > Black Walder > Petyr Pimple > Perra^1, 5 > Aegon Jinglebell > Maegelle¹ > Walder Vance^1, 5 > Patrek Vance^1, 5 > Marianne Vance^1, 5 > Walton > Steffon > Bryan⁵ > Fair Walda¹ > Emmon⁴ > Cleos > Tywin^4,5 > Willem^4, 5 > Lyonel⁴ > Tion^4, 5 > Red Walder^4, 5 > Aenys > Aegon Bloodborn³ > Rhaegar > Robert⁵ > Jonos⁵ > White Walda^{1, 5} > Perianne¹ > Harys Haigh¹ > Walder Haigh^1, 5 > Donnel Haigh¹ > Alyn Haigh^1, 5 > Jared > Tytos > Zachery^{2, 5} > Zia^{1, 5} > Kyra¹ > Walder Goodbrook^{1, 5} > Jeyne Goodbrook^{1, 5} > Luceon² > Hosteen > Arwood⁶ > Androw^{5, 6} > Alyn^{5, 6} > Ryella^{1, 5, 6} > Hostella^{1, 5, 6} > Symond > Alesander⁷ > Bradamar^{5, 8} > Alyx¹ > Danwell⁶ > Merrett > Little Walder > Amerei^{1, 6} > Fat Walda^{1, 6} > Marissa^{1, 6} > Geremy > Sandor⁵ > Cynthea^{1, 5} > Raymund > Robert² > Malwyn⁸ > Tywin⁵ > Jaime⁵ > Sarra^{1, 5} > Serra^{1, 5} > Cersei^{1, 5} > Lythene¹ > Damon Vypren¹ > Elyana Vypren¹ > Rickard Vypren^{1, 5} > Lothar

Legend

• Striketrough = Dead
• ¹ = Female character or descendant of female character
• ² = Took/Will take a vow barring them from succession (Septon, Septa, Maester, ..)
• ³ = Outlaw
• ⁴ = Members of House Frey of Riverrun, might be passed over now that they have their own castle
• ⁵ = Children, they would require a Regent to rule in their place
• ⁶ = Members of House Lannister of Darry or their household, might be passed over now that they have left the Twins
• ⁷ = Freys too close to the Starks and not trusted by the core family
• ⁸ = Away in Essos

 

If we simplify the line of succession by deleting all the characters concerned by one of the points in the legend, it becomes:

Lord Walder > Edwyn > Black Walder > Walton > Steffon > Hosteen > Raymund > Lothar.

Edwyn and Black Walder are probably gonna end up killing each other. Hosteen is likely to die in the North in TWOW. I seriously don't think the BWB is done killing Freys and as the killer of Catelyn Stark, Raymund is probably the prime target they want to eliminate right now. That would only leave Walton and his son Steffon ahead of Lothar, the odds are not that bad for Lothar all things considered.

Edited April 24 by Thomaerys Velaryon

[James Steller]

8 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

as Hand he kept the kingdom peaceful for almost the whole of Aerys' reign.

He did that by eliminating all of Aegon V’s reforms. We never hear the smallfolk’s side of the story, just the official historians kissing Tywin’s butt. We sometimes get an idea of who the smallfolk like and dislike. They never liked Tywin, from what I recall, and that says something.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

They never liked Tywin, from what I recall, and that says something.

To be fair though at least one peasant also seems to think Aerys was a great guy because the roads were safe.

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

He was strategic. In conjunction with his propensity to massacre and lay waste to the kingdom, we should factor in as Hand he kept the kingdom peaceful for almost the whole of Aerys' reign.

Was he strategic when he had up to a hundred of his personal guard rape his son's wife?

[James Steller]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair though at least one peasant also seems to think Aerys was a great guy because the roads were safe.

They can be mistaken, sometimes. They seemed to love Renly because he dressed nice, after all 

[Alester Florent]

19 minutes ago, James Steller said:

They can be mistaken, sometimes. They seemed to love Renly because he dressed nice, after all 

That wasn't the only reason they loved Renly. But they were right to in any case!

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

They can be mistaken, sometimes. They seemed to love Renly because he dressed nice, after all 

At least they won't make a mistake when it comes to Stannis, then.

[sifth]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair though at least one peasant also seems to think Aerys was a great guy because the roads were safe.

While a prisoner of Tywin.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

While a prisoner of Tywin.

True.

[sifth]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

True.

The irony of that scene. It’s why George’s writing is leagues above most people’s.