UK Politics XIV: The Eyes Of Caligula, The Mouth Of Marilyn Monroe

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Wert,

Are you sure about the "not gleeful or overtly celebritory" statement?

Rather than reveling her death, I think it's more of a shame that she ever lived. She peaked when she helped to invent Mr Whippy ice cream.

Burn in hell Maggie.

"somewhere a dark tower in mordor collapses"

Please please please let them try it at Newcastle Sunderland this weekend. That would be The closest the 2 sets of fans will have ever been. The evil old cow didn't even have the decency to die at the weekend so I could go out and celebrate.

Wherever it is I suspect they are going to have to post a 24hr guard just to stop people digging her up so they can drive a wooden stake through where her heart should have been.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Gotta admit, it is weird as hell to see all these hipster teenagers dancing around in celebration, who probably weren't even born when she resigned.

To be fair, they're the ones who've had to live with the consequences of her policies. Her damage was generational.

[MinDonner]

Yes Scot, miss off half of Wert's sentence and lose half the meaning!

No-one is celebrating an old woman's succumbing to sickness. The ones that are celebrating, are doing so because a powerful politician whose policies directly affected their lives has died. Painting her as some frail sick old lady that we should all feel sorry for is disingenuous, and whatever your feelings about the woman, I very much doubt that's how she'd want to be remembered.

[Hereward]

To be fair, they're the ones who've had to live with the consequences of her policies. Her damage was generational.

I very, very much doubt it, unless hipsters have become a lot less affluent middle class and a lot more lumpenproletariat all of a sudden.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Min,

Without question Thatcher wouldn't have wanted to be remembered as a frail old woman who died after a long convelesencse. She knew she was polerizing and didn't shy away from it. Many of the posts in this thread have concretely offered serious and cogent criticisim of her time as PM. But not all as I posted above.

What are the chances of similar sentiments being expressed around the site of her actual funeral?

[Eyelesbarrow]

Thatcher in death is a fair game -she herself had drawn these battle lines when she was alive. Kind of unfair to call a halt to the criticisms against her when the right has no qualms in eulogizing her to build up their own myths for political gain.

[Usotsuki]

Min,

I'm quite fond of this particular traditional rite, when someone controversial dies Ser Scot reminds us all that he strongly disapproves of celebrating anyone's death because it is important that when considering the impact of Thatcherism, Reaganism, Chavismo or Michael Jacksonism we remember that Ser Scot at least is a man of unimpeachable morals.

I'm actually somewhat surprised by the breadth and depth of my vast oceans of indifference to the actual event, though I am still reassuringly irritated by the flummery, I'm starting to dread the death of Tony Blair.

[Lummel]

Thatcher in death is a fair game -she herself had drawn these battle lines when she was alive. Kind of unfair to call a halt to the criticisms against her when the right has no qualms in eulogizing her to build up their own myths for political gain.

That is an interesting point, I was thinking on Adelstein's point about the unions and some of the coverage I was reading in the Evening Standard yesterday. That you're either with me or against the good of the country was very much her stock in trade, a plurality of alternative, equally valid, opinions just wasn't imaginable for her. Geoffrey Howe (I was surprised that he's still alive), admittedly probably not exactly her greatest admirer considering their eventual falling out wrote:

The secret, for those who negotiated with Margaret — whether as opponent or as partner — was to find the way of enabling her head to prevail over her heart. The process often required a willingness to tolerate behaviour, often in front of others, that would have been intolerable from anyone else.

Taoiseach Garret Fitzgerald’s tenacity, for example, in pursuit of the Anglo-Irish agreement required him to swallow the public humiliation of her “Out, out, out!” tirade after one of their Chequers meetings. The Anglo-Irish negotiations, for all their success, exposed one of Margaret’s most tragic failings: her inability to appreciate, still less to accommodate, somebody else’s patriotism. Irishness, even Scottishness, I sometimes felt, she regarded as somehow beyond some unspoken pale. It may well have been their perception of this truth that led to the progressive disenchantment of the Scottish people with the Unionist party under her leadership.

So too, most seriously of all, it explained her inability to reconcile the idea of European union with the concept of national patriotism. She saw a similar conflict of loyalty at GCHQ — between a worker’s commitment to his job, to Her Majesty’s Service, on the one hand and his membership of a trade union on the other.

This reminded me of the scene when British Airways invited Mrs T to some shindig to show off the new livery designs for their fleet and Mrs T made a point of tying a hanky round the tail of one of the model 'planes to show that she disapproved of the Union Flag not being there (maybe she shouldn't have privatised BA if she wanted to maintain control of its branding).

It's always struck me as strange, the difference between the emphasis she put on her father, the Methodist lay preacher and grocer's influence, that the careful, even penny pinching management style of the small shopkeeper should be the model for government and the reality of the policies she pursued which saw the deregulation of lending, opening up of banking, opening up of massive levels of consumer credit, the advancement of a consumer society and economy, property booms and land speculation.

[A wilding]

Thatcher in death is a fair game -she herself had drawn these battle lines when she was alive. Kind of unfair to call a halt to the criticisms against her when the right has no qualms in eulogizing her to build up their own myths for political gain.

+1. There is a quite common PR trick being pulled here. By complaining about the Left celebrating her death, some sections of the Right are trying to sweep the very real criticisms of her that are being make under the carpet as part of the ongoing process of attempting to deify her.

[SeanF]

In all honesty I too have difficulty reconciling "the idea of European Union with national patriotism."

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

See Scot, were she able, Thatcher likely would say something pithy and inflammatory, such as "why are you surprised? That's the kind of people they are", and then enjoyed the response. She'd have viewed their tone as reflecting discredit upon their decency, thereby playing into her hands. Which would have angered her opponents more.

If you'd ever tasted marmite, you'd understand

[lumer]

To be fair, they're the ones who've had to live with the consequences of her policies. Her damage was generational.

Can you elaborate? Or can someone give a quick summary of her most "evil" actions to a foreigner who knows nothing?

I hear talks about her that "she did what needs to be done, England was in the shitter and she saved it" and I do not know how to counter that

[Hereward]

I believe this is a relatively neutral view point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886

[Theda Baratheon]

Gotta admit, it is weird as hell to see all these hipster teenagers dancing around in celebration, who probably weren't even born when she resigned.

To be fair I think this is really unfair. Yes, I wasn't born when she resigned, but I am part of a Welsh family who were miners for years, and there are a LOT of other reasons why my family hated her and her policies.

Also I'm from a working class family so I don't really think I qualify as a hipster or middle class at all.

I've seen a lot of this yes, but to just dismiss a lot of people because of their age is unfair. I'm not an idiot. I've had hours and hours of discussions with my Father and Mother on their political views, ect ect. It's not like she is just a cartoon villain whose demise I have misguidedly sought to cheer when knowing nothing of her. Because I'm not an ignorant idiot just because I'm a teenager. (I know this is not what you implied, but I have seen others on the internet implying this).

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I've seen a lot of this yes, but to just dismiss a lot of people because of their age is unfair. I'm not an idiot. I've had hours and hours of discussions with my Father and Mother on their political views, ect ect. It's not like she is just a cartoon villain whose demise I have misguidedly sought to cheer when knowing nothing of her. Because I'm not an ignorant idiot just because I'm a teenager. (I know this is not what you implied, but I have seen others on the internet implying this).

That's fair, but if your primary source of information is parents who hated her -- as your post suggests -- then it's likely you're getting a somewhat biased view of her, don't you think? People who dislike someone intensely generally don't sit around and reflect on any positives that person did -- they're going to rant about everything negative.

To pull a page from GRRM's bag 'o tricks, everyone is the hero of their own story. There had to be reasons she pushed the policies she did other than pure spite/meanness. I don't think anyone criticizing her fairly would dispute that she at least believed that she was doing what was necessary to save the country, yet there are plenty of critics whose tone doesn't seem to acknowledged even that. She's just Sauron to them.

Plus, seeing people dance around celebrating the demise of someone who was before their time is...odd. Not sure how you can have such an emotional reaction when you didn't live through it in the first place. That suggests, at least to me, people who are simply acting as conduits for their parents, or whomever else told them what to think.

[Werthead]

'Hipster' is a very bizarre term. Aside from the odd comic use (such as the excellent Tweet, "Is Game of Thrones just Warhammer for hipsters?") I don't think it's of much use.

Get your own hate figure, kids!

It's not like they don't have at least half a dozen candidates from the current government to choose from, to start with :)

Wert, Are you sure about the "not gleeful or overtly celebritory" statement?

Fair enough. I've been following some of the commentary on Twitter and by comparison the most negative statement here is measured and respectful ;) However, as Min said, there is still a difference between 'Maggie the Tyrant PM' (YMMV) and 'beloved mother and grandmother'. We know very little about the latter and can't speak to that. We know a lot about the former, and discussion will be based around that.

[MaidenScotland]

Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead is currently at number 8 on the UK itunes chart. :lol: Just throwing that out there.

[Lummel]

I believe this is a relatively neutral view point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-22076886

Says the man from the BBC :laugh:

I agree with Sandbrook's point on manufacturing and mining. So many issues had been postponed for so long that change when it came was bound to be disruptive and difficult to implement.

...I've seen a lot of this yes, but to just dismiss a lot of people because of their age is unfair. I'm not an idiot. I've had hours and hours of discussions with my Father and Mother on their political views, ect ect. It's not like she is just a cartoon villain whose demise I have misguidedly sought to cheer when knowing nothing of her. Because I'm not an ignorant idiot just because I'm a teenager. (I know this is not what you implied, but I have seen others on the internet implying this).

Theda, a word to the wise, no matter how tempted or annoyed you are, always resist the desire to say "I'm not an idiot". It invariably comes across as an idiotic thing to say. Just let the quality of your post speak for itself. :)

[SeanF]

Here's a snapshot of current British public opinion.

50% approve of her record; 39% disapprove. 25% strongly approve; 20% strongly disapprove.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/britain-divided-margaret-thatcher-record-poll

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Here's a snapshot of current British public opinion.

50% approve of her record; 39% disapprove. 25% strongly approve; 20% strongly disapprove.

http://www.guardian....her-record-poll

I guess some people really did like her. ;)