UK Politics XIV: The Eyes Of Caligula, The Mouth Of Marilyn Monroe

[Lummel]

...My question to Varys was more from the perspective of those who might actually like some of what she did. Did her actions shift debate in her direction, or has that effect essentially dissipated by now?

Well it depends what actions you've got in mind. But her emphasis on deregulation and privatisation remains the political mainstream and has been so since the late 80s, I can't remember any more when Labour dropped clause four, it was under John Smith iirc, so maybe the early 90s then. She stepped up centralisation, and there's been no decentralisation since.

So the terms of the political debate changed as a result of her administration, that effect has certainly not dissipated.

I read the news this morning and it struck me as very sad. I always admired Ms. Thatcher. I know she isnt popular with our British cousins, but I will say may she rest in well deserved peace for my fellow Americans.

There are people she is still very popular with. She had a degree of popularity down south at any rate because she was perceived as no nonsense and combative. Eventually she had a problem with her party because she wasn't one for taking advice or respecting other peoples opinions. But then if anything that was the basis of her popularity amongst taxi drivers, Essex boys, men who wore braces in the City etc

[Werthead]

I read the news this morning and it struck me as very sad. I always admired Ms. Thatcher. I know she isnt popular with our British cousins, but I will say may she rest in well deserved peace for my fellow Americans.

Why exactly is she so popular in the USA? I've never quite gotten this. She impressed Reagan, we know that, but is that all there is to it? Thatcher was certainly not impressed when the USA refused to openly back the UK during the Falkland War (leading to the unedifying spectacle of her pouring praise on Pinochet's Chile instead). She was a strong personality in the negotiations that brought about the end of the Cold War, but in terms of what she could actually do she was more of an onlooker (Reagan and Gorbachev being more important there, obviously). And she certainly wasn't happy with the USA allowing huge amounts of fund-raising going on for the Republican movement in Northern Ireland.

[polishgenius]

PG,

I didn't criticize Chavez (who I criticized roundly when he was alive for his supression of opposition speech) when he passed. I said, may he rest in peace.

That particular post wasn't referring to you, but the general British reaction from quite a few people and most specifically the media.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

PG,

Which is, one reason, why I'm consistent in not speaking ill of the dead right after they die. Genocides excepted.

[Darryk]

I just don't understand the whole Thatcher thing. How can a leader be so hated by one side and revered by the other?

I've heard people speak about her with such admiration, like she was the greatest leader Britain had since Churchill. Yet how can someone be one of Britain's greatest leaders when most of Britain seems to hate her? The Scottish, Irish, Welsh, and the working classes all seemingly despise her. Also, from what I've read about her it sounds like she did the opposite of all the things a "great leader" is supposed to do.

[polishgenius]

I've heard people speak about her with such admiration, like she was the greatest leader Britain had since Churchill.

If it wasn't for a certain taboo associated with criticising the man who metaphorically punched Hitler in the face, Churchill would almost certainly be equally divisive.

[Serious Callers Only]

'Great leader' to sociopaths that rise to the top.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Why exactly is she so popular in the USA? I've never quite gotten this. She impressed Reagan, we know that, but is that all there is to it?

Well, she's certainly more of a free-market capitalist than the typically socialistic Brit politician. She was essentially offering the same kind of rhetoric -- except perhaps even better -- than Reagan was offering here, when he was very popular. "The problem with socialism...." line was just red meat to many of us yanks. She was a proponent of military strength, confronting the Soviets, etc.. Again, all things that might not have as much appeal in the UK (though I don't know personally), but things that just meshed perfectly with what Reagan voters believed.

She made Britain seem more like a strong, vigorous friend than a, er, doddering, declining uncle. Honestly, a fair number of Americans considered Britain something of a basket case in the late 70's.

ETA: Also, Americans tend to like British accents, and there was something about her accent and what she was saying that just sounded so cool, even if you were just reading the written word. Very quotable. Probably because she had some very strong words hidden inside that British reserve.

I always liked "I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air".

[Lummel]

I just don't understand the whole Thatcher thing. How can a leader be so hated by one side and revered by the other?...

Very easily. She was a marmite prime minster. And there were winners and loosers as a result of her policies. Thatcher I think did well in capturing the working class vote of Essex Man, it was the working class vote in certain unionised trades and in the traditional industries that that didn't survive and the cities/regions that were dependent on those that she was unpopular with.

[Opisthokont]

Apparently there is now a party going on in Glasgow city centre

Ooh, a Mogwai reference! Will they do the Mega-Snake as well?

[ljkeane]

Do you really think so? My impression (albeit from 3000 miles away) is that her views are in such a minority in the UK that they might as well not have existed, and all she really did was hold back the tide for a bit longer.

Oh, Thatcher's views absolutely have had a lasting impact, it's hard to think of many of her core policy positions that don't remain at least still within realm of mainstream political debate, if not accepted as a given. As many people have pointed out most of her privatisation and deregulation programme remains in force with little effort to change it and while she didn't directly implement it the current monetarist style of the MPC is certainly a legacy of her positions. New Labour were hardly a dramatically removed from Thatcherism and the current Tory leadership is proving to be very Thatcherite despite some waffling before they were elected.

She did tend to use very pro small government/monetarist rhetoric which from an American perspective I'm sure associates her with the positions of Americans who used similar rhetoric, and she did hold some of them to a degree, but she was talking in the context of moving a very different British political landscape. Prior to Thatcher political positions were determined relative to Attlee post war reforms, now they're mostly determined with reference to Thatcher.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Oh, Thatcher's views absolutely have had a lasting impact, it's hard to think of many of her core policy positions that don't remain at least still within realm of mainstream political debate, if not accepted as a given. As many people have pointed out most of her privatisation and deregulation programme remains in force with little effort to change it and while she didn't directly implement it the current monetarist style of the MPC is certainly a legacy of her positions. New Labour were hardly a dramatically removed from Thatcherism and the current Tory leadership is proving to be very Thatcherite despite some waffling before they were elected.

She did tend to use very pro small government/monetarist rhetoric which from an American perspective I'm sure associates her with the positions of Americans who used similar rhetoric, and she did hold some of them to a degree, but she was talking in the context of moving a very different British political landscape. Prior to Thatcher political positions were determined relative to Attlee post war reforms, now they're mostly determined with reference to Thatcher.

Thanks. Good explanation.

[Robin Of House Hill]

About the only thing I liked that she did, was the Falkland war, though I thought a bit more payback was in order.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Very easily. She was a marmite prime minster...

Okay, that one's going to take some explanation, because I almost puked the only time I ever tasted that crap.

Is that what it means?

[Seli]

Okay, that one's going to take some explanation, because I almost puked the only time I ever tasted that crap.

Is that what it means?

Half of it; other people love it when they try it, and push it to everyone else. And there is no middle position there to speak of.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I can't remember any more when Labour dropped clause four, it was under John Smith iirc, so maybe the early 90s then.

It was Blair. One of the first things he pushed for on becoming Labour leader.

[Maltaran]

Okay, that one's going to take some explanation, because I almost puked the only time I ever tasted that crap.

Is that what it means?

The advertising slogan is "You love it or you hate it", so any position where there's no real middle ground is a Marmite position.

[Kouran]

Why exactly is she so popular in the USA? I've never quite gotten this. She impressed Reagan, we know that, but is that all there is to it? Thatcher was certainly not impressed when the USA refused to openly back the UK during the Falkland War (leading to the unedifying spectacle of her pouring praise on Pinochet's Chile instead). She was a strong personality in the negotiations that brought about the end of the Cold War, but in terms of what she could actually do she was more of an onlooker (Reagan and Gorbachev being more important there, obviously). And she certainly wasn't happy with the USA allowing huge amounts of fund-raising going on for the Republican movement in Northern Ireland.

For me she talked the talk and walked the walk. She didnt take bullshit from anyone and was a staunch ally. She also said this far and not one step further to socialism and communism, and we ate that up over here in the 80's.

I wish our last two presidents had half the balls she did.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

For me she talked the talk and walked the walk. She didnt take bullshit from anyone and was a staunch ally. She also said this far and not one step further to socialism and communism, and we ate that up over here in the 80's.

I wish our last two presidents had half the balls she did.

Last 3.

[Geddon]

So where are they going to bury her? I can imagine a lot of people would want to -finally and literally - piss on her grave.

Wherever it is I suspect they are going to have to post a 24hr guard just to stop people digging her up so they can drive a wooden stake through where her heart should have been.