[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Lord Varys]

Tze,

your assessment of the age of the Cannibal (oldest dragon alive after Vhagar) is at odds with Gyldayn's quote about Vermithor after Vhagar's death. He states that after Vhagar's death Vermithor was the oldest and largest of all the dragon alive. It's not confirmed whether Jaehaerys was the only rider of Vermithor, but even if he wasn't (Vermithor could have been ridden by Aenys' eldest sister before he was claimed by Jaehaerys, for instance), Vermithor could only be about 120-130 years old, and the Cannibal would have to be at least somewhat younger. Depending on when Aenys and his sisters were born. That is, as long as we accept a connection between Targaryens born and dragons born (due to the fact that the eggs were given to them).

Thus it is not possible to assume that the Cannibal was out there since, say, even before the Conquest. At best, Vermithor and the Cannibal can both be dragons that hatched around the time Aegon's children were born. In fact, the age of the other old wild dragon, Sheepstealer (who was about 80-100 years old, depending when exactly Jaehaerys was born), may indicate that the Cannibal was not yet a threat at all during his youth. Sheepstealer became wild some years after the Cannibal, but perhaps before the later developed a taste for dragons. Grey Ghost must have been a younger dragon, since an injured Sunfyre was able to kill him. His sneaky habit and hidden nature strongly suggests that he had spent most of his life evading the Cannibal.

There is no hint whatsoever that giving the eggs to the children was a later idea, nor must it be connected to the Cannibal. It's also conjecture to assume that all the dragons hatched on Dragonstone. That must not be the case. We don't know whether Shrykos and Morghul hatched on Dragonstone or in the Red Keep/Dragonpit. The fact that Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone may have nothing to do with a ritual involving a grown-up dragon. He may have been originally the dragon of one of Rhaenyra's brothers from Viserys' first wife, who then later was claimed by young Prince Aegon. In fact, that could explain why Sunfyre appears to be much bigger than all the other young dragons.

As to the hatcheries, we don't yet know what they were. Were they the places were female dragons produced their eggs? Were they sort of 'natural nests' created by the mother dragon, or were they built by humans for that purpose? Were they the places were dragon eggs lay around until they hatched and/or were they the places were the young, unclaimed dragons were kept on Dragonstone?

The latter seems to be the case, but if we assume that an adult dragon was needed to hatch an egg, one would assume that wild dragons would lay their eggs in a similar fashion than most birds and certain reptiles (crocodiles, some snakes). Build a nest, lay the eggs, sit on them and protect them until they hatch (perhaps even some time afterwards). If the Targaryen dragons originally lived more closely to this natural process then the Cannibal would have to face an adult mother dragon if he wanted to feed on eggs and hatchlings. That would be especially during throughout the Cannibal's youth (i.e. during the reigns of Aegon/Aenys/Maegor) when those mother dragons would have been either Meraxes or Vhagar. According to your theory, this would have been the time when the Targaryens started to protect their dragon eggs by removing them from the hatcheries to give them to their children.

My guess is that it was common even before the Conquest, perhaps even common since Valyrian times, to remove the dragon eggs from the mother as soon as she had laid them. An important point of the bonding process seems to be the fact that a young dragon considers his future rider his parent. That would most likely not have worked if the actual mother had some time to bond with her child. Sheepstealer most likely escaped the hatcheries before he could bond with any human, which would explain why Netty had to make him accept her presence before she could try to claim him.

The Cannibal could have only started causing problems for the hatcheries on Dragonstone (where no adult dragons, only eggs and hatchlings were kept) after the Red Keep and the Dragonpit were finished during Maegor's reign. Aegon moved his family and his dragons back to Dragonstone after the Conquest, and I can't really see the Cannibal try to mess when Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar were close by.

And considering the fact that the young Targaryens - Aegon the Younger, Baela - spent much time with their future mounts, one should expect that the hatcheries were filled with young 'spare dragons' most of the time. Especially later on, when the dragons had already multiplied and more eggs were around than prospective riders.

Another tidbit that may indicate that no adult dragon was involved in the hatching of dragon eggs may be the fact that the last two female dragons hatched on Dragonstone during the last years of the reign of Aegon III, of which the last elder one only died a year later. I'd be very surprised if at this time there was still an adult dragon around who could have hatched those eggs.

On Rhaenyra's wealth:

Rhaenyra only gets into money trouble later on, when she takes KL. She has the wealth and resources of House Velaryon at her disposal, that's explicitly mentioned, and it really seems as if Corlys Velaryon is really, really rich... Thus any thought of her wanting to sell three dragon eggs through Rhaena - and in the Vale of all places - makes not much sense to me. Even later on Rhaenyra does not strike me as wanting to get back to Dragonstone to sell her remaining dragon eggs (but later on that option would make a little bit of sense - pretty much none in the beginning of the war). Especially not since Daemon had long captured Harrenhal when Rhaena and Joffrey were sent to the Vale.

On Davos and the Velaryons:

Giving Davos' illiteracy his source for his knowledge on Velaryon ancestry must be either Maesters Cressen or Pylos (I'm more inclined to believe it was Cressen), Stannis himself (when discussing the bannermen sworn to Dragonstone with Davos in the wake of Robert's death), or Lord Monford Velaryon may have mentioned that fact to Davos during dinner once, to make him feel how far beneath him 'House Seaworth' was. It's not that Davos could not gather knowledge by talking to people who knew their stuff...

On the dragon skull stuff I agree. Tyrion has no real way to know whose skull he saw. Thus it may be that Meraxes was larger than Vhagar during the Conquest (indicating that Meraxes hatched years/decades before Vhagar), but Vhagar was larger than Meraxes and nearly as big as Balerion upon her death in 130 AC.

On Corlys:

We don't yet know. I thought that if he was executed it would have been mentioned. It is strange that Rhaenyra does not take Corlys and Alicent with her when she leaves the capital. They were all held within the Red Keep. I assumed that since Corlys was the one suggesting the Aegon-Jaehaera marriage he may actually live long enough to see that through. He may turn out to be Aegon's first Regent and Hand, only to three weeks or so after the Dance.

My take on events in KL after Rhaenyra left is that Ser Perkin the Flea took the Red Keep and seated 'King Trystane' in the Iron Throne. Alicent could be forcefully wed to 'King Trystane' (to make the Dowager Queen a real queen again...), or be forced to serve Perkin/Trystane as a bed slave. Corlys, Tyland, and Rhaenyra's other prisoners may be freed if they swear loyalty to Perkin/Trystane. Tyland survives the Dance and even serves as Hand (either for Trystane or Aegon II) before he dies of the Winter Fever. Aegon II spents about two months on Dragonstone after Rhaenyra's death (from the tenth moon to the twelfth moon of 130) until Sunfyre dies. Perkin's men should have had time enough to consolidate their power in KL, especially since it does not seem as if either a Black or Green army is marching on KL. The Hightower army dissolved, and we don't know what the remnants of Addam's Black army were up to. But taking KL would not have been the priority, especially not when they learned about Rhaenyra's escape and subsequent death.

[History of Westeros]

Great thoughts. This thread is killer.

I am doubtful the Cannibal was any sort of threat to adult dragons, and I'm doubtful Grey Ghost was afraid of him.

We're told Vhagar "sensed" Arrax before seeing him. If dragons can sense each other like this I am doubtful GG could've hidden from him on the same smallish island for decades.

Cannibal seems like he only goes for easy pickings. Grey Ghost was not easy pickings for Sunfyre (yeah, Sunfyre was wounded but still). How does Grey Ghost evade Cannibal for so long yet wounded, slow-flying Sunfyre catch him? Grey Ghost frequently flew out over the water, which means he's quite exposed and far from shelter.

On the skulls:

I think the conclusion that Tyrion was wrong about which skull is which is possible... but he's incredibly well-read and knowledgable so it's not so easy to settle on that. How could he possibly not be aware that Vhagar lived 100+ years past Meraxes? He certainly knew Vhagar fought in the Dance, he's our original source for Aemond being her rider. Surely he knows about Meraxes' death too.

If he didn't *know* which skull was which, he wouldn't guess that the larger one is Meraxes, knowing their ages like he does. If he didn't have some sort of hint, he'd look at the largest and assume it's Balerion, then assume the next largest was Vhagar... but he didn't. He already knew which was which. He knew one of the other skulls was 3,000 years old.

This is why I can't easily accept that Tyrion simply misidentified the skulls.

[Veltigar]

I think the conclusion that Tyrion was wrong about which skull is which is possible... but he's incredibly well-read and knowledgable so it's not so easy to settle on that. How could he possibly not be aware that Vhagar lived 100+ years past Meraxes? He certainly knew Vhagar fought in the Dance, he's our original source for Aemond being her rider. Surely he knows about Meraxes' death too.

:blushing: I'm drawing a blank here. When was "Aemond" mentioned in the main series?

[History of Westeros]

:blushing: I'm drawing a blank here. When was "Aemond" mentioned in the main series?

When Tyrion is discussing dragons with Haldon Half-Maester.

“—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s shedragon,

which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?”

It's funny how many misspellings there are in the e-books. Munkun is spelled two different ways in that one paragraph. Also my aGoT has Vhagar spelled Vhaghar multiple times.

Also there's a case where the Red God is called "W'hllor".

[Lord Varys]

We are told that Grey Ghost flew out over the water and preyed on the fishes (most likely in a similar fashion than Dany's dragons on the voyage from Qarth to Astapor). It's evident to me that Grey Ghost stumbled on Sunfyre while he was on one of his hunts. Sunfyre was injured and could not yet fly properly and/or not fly over long distances, so he had to reach Dragonstone soon or risk drowning. I guess Sunfyre considering Grey Ghost a threat to himself or an obstacle on his flight. He would have attacked first, I think, else Grey Ghost would most likely have killed Sunfyre, since he was not injured and should have been able to finish the kill quickly if he had attacked first.

On Vhagar and Arrax:

I always took that in the sense that dragons smell each other when they are close by. Not necessarily that they can smell each other over long distances. I guess the Cannibal could hunt another dragon by sniffing it out, but he may not be particularly eager to confront another grown-up dragon in his own lair.

But the Cannibal must really be larger and/or more ferocious than Sheepstealer during the Dance, since he was able to drive off Sheepstealer during one of the failed attempt to claim him. It would be interesting to know what kind of meat the Cannibal preferred when no hatchlings/eggs/corpses were available. The population of Dragonstone does not seem to consider him a threat, whereas Sheepstealer earned that name because he fed on the sheep population of Dragonstone and Driftmark.

[History of Westeros]

I considered that Vhagar smelled Arrax, but the problem is that there was a torrential rainstorm. I'm no expert on olfactory senses, but I think the weather would've been a serious inhibitor to such. But that said, like everything in the short story, it was said by the maester. We don't really know that Vhagar sensed Arrax ahead of time.

My point about Sunfyre wasn't that he hunted Grey Ghost, I agree that they probably stumbled upon one another. I like the suggestion that Sunfyre attacked in fear because he was wounded. Still, it's a bit strange. If Grey Ghost saw Sunfyre coming, surely he could've gotten away given the damaged wing. So I suspect he was ambushed or caught off guard (which argues against the whole, "sensing each other" thing to be fair.

That's basically where I'm coming from: it's not just that Sunfyre found Grey Ghost, it's that he caught him. Which would seem to be hard, and argues that Cannibal wasn't particularly interested. Because Cannibal would have an easier time. It also occurs to me that dragons cast rather large shadows. I was thinking Sunfyre perhaps descended on Grey Ghost, taking him unawares, but not only is the shadow a problem, Sunfyre's injury makes high altitude a problem, I think.

I suppose a dragon could cast a much smaller shadow if it folds its wings like a hawk and divebombs. We sorta saw that on HBO with the fishing scene, so maybe that explains it.

Cannibal is much older than Grey Ghost it seems, at least by a few decades I think. So there may have been a time where Grey Ghost was small, and at *that* point, Cannibal would've probably been interested in making a meal of him (more fool him, ghosts have few calories or nutrients). So GG perhaps had a long stretch of time where he was in danger. I'd guess that this happened with some other wild dragons too, and those were not so lucky. Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost may have been the only other two wild dragons simply because Cannibal ate the rest when they were small (I feel like that's been suggested already but damn this is a long thread). I think he's likely to leave alone any dragon that starts to get to a size where they could hurt him. That's pretty standard predator behavior, go for the young and weak, avoid those that can fight back.

[Carey Snow]

I just finished this short story and have not read through this entire thread, so I am sure the following observations have already been touched upon. Most of this thread seems to revolve around debate of the history of Westeros. I am most interested in the nature of Dragons, and how it relates to Dany and her three dragons in the main series. My observations:

1. Dragons can be and are killed in war. The Dragons are not quite the "Nuclear Weapon" many of us thought. No doubt, they can do lots of damage and will greatly help the side they are fighting for. But they are killable by large groups of human beings, especially with lots of archers and catapults. If the Dragon is unable to fly, it becomes much more vulnerable. And many of the dragons in The Princess and The Queen are full grown and Dany's will not be. Plus if the Dragon loses its rider, it is a free for all as which side the dragon will attack.

2. When a Dragon is killed in battle, the dragon rider is usually killed as well. Aegon survives by jumping from his dragon 20 feet before hitting the ground but he also shatters both of his legs. Most of the other pilots go down with their dragons to their doom.

3. Dragons are not pack animals. They are not like the Dire Wolves who sense their siblings and Stark masters at incredible distances. They do not seem to love each other or their riders like the wolves do. The bound between the rider and his/her dragon seems to be one more of acceptance and toleration than love.

4. Dragons are not intelligent creatures like Smaug in the Hobbit, or the Dragons in Dungeons and Dragons. There are no riddles, or haughty conversations. These are dangerous, half wild, super reptiles that can fly and breath fire. Very unpredictable creatures.

These revelations put Dany's situation in a new light. I can now see it as much more of a possibility that one or all of her Dragons could turn on her. She is building a nice bond with Drogon, but not so much with Rhaegal or Viserion. If she goes to war on Drogon's back, there is no guarantee of victory, and a strong likely hood of Dany's own demise. Especially against other dragons, but also against a disciplined and strong army. It is also going to make Dany's first few chapters in tWoW very interesting. The Dothraki may not have the archers to take down Drogon in flight, but I am not sure that Drogon and Dany's bond is nearly as strong as many of us thought. He may very well finish his lunch and fly off, with or without Dany, and follow her where ever the Dothraki take her, but there is no reason to think he will come to her rescue like Summer or Ghost would for Bran or Jon.

[BloodRider]

I predict Tyrion will invent the parachute.

[Cubarey]

"These revelations put Dany's situation in a new light. I can now see it as much more of a possibility that one or all of her Dragons could turn on her. She is building a nice bond with Drogon, but not so much with Rhaegal or Viserion. If she goes to war on Drogon's back, there is no guarantee of victory, and a strong likely hood of Dany's own demise. Especially against other dragons, but also against a disciplined and strong army. "

That's why she has three dragons not one and we all expect her to find other dragon riders before the ultimate battles. Further, I at least presume that the Dragons will be pivatol not in the Conquest of Westeros (where there mere prresence against armies who have absolutely knowledge of how to effectively fight dragons will surely make them a forbidalbe force not withstanding their limitations) but in the war against The Others were archers will be much less of an issue for the Dragons.

[Chilli]

Did GRRM confirm that the 4 dragons who disappeared in TPATQ are dead or won't return to ASOIAF? It would be fun if Victarion blows the horn and a huge dragon like sheepstealer would show up.

[Carey Snow]

I predict Tyrion will invent the parachute.

I like it!

[Fire Eater]

I just finished this short story and have not read through this entire thread, so I am sure the following observations have already been touched upon. Most of this thread seems to revolve around debate of the history of Westeros. I am most interested in the nature of Dragons, and how it relates to Dany and her three dragons in the main series. My observations:

1. Dragons can be and are killed in war. The Dragons are not quite the "Nuclear Weapon" many of us thought. No doubt, they can do lots of damage and will greatly help the side they are fighting for. But they are killable by large groups of human beings, especially with lots of archers and catapults. If the Dragon is unable to fly, it becomes much more vulnerable. And many of the dragons in The Princess and The Queen are full grown and Dany's will not be. Plus if the Dragon loses its rider, it is a free for all as which side the dragon will attack

We aren't given any incident of a dragon being killed by a catapult. Catapults are too big and heavy to be used effectively against dragons as they are siege weapons designed for large stationary targets like castles. Catapults used for things other than attacking cities or fortifications is unheard of.

[Lost Melnibonean]

We aren't given any incident of a dragon being killed by a catapult. Catapults are too big and heavy to be used effectively against dragons as they are siege weapons designed for large stationary targets like castles. Catapults used for things other than attacking cities or fortifications is unheard of.

Aboard the Shy Maid we first observe Tyrion play Cyvasse with Haldon. "Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it." He recalled losing his dragon to a trebuchet in his last game. Later Tyrion did reach for his dragon and defeated the halfmaester. Viserion's gonna get wacked.

The next game we see him play is against Aegon and, in that same chapter, Tyrion plays against a Volantene who "moved his catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion's alabaster dragon, removed it from the board." See why I think Viserion's gonna get wacked? And it looks like it might be from one if the six trebuchets at Meereen. My guess would be Dragonbreaker.

[Veltigar]

Aboard the Shy Maid we first observe Tyrion play Cyvasse with Haldon. "Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it." He recalled losing his dragon to a trebuchet in his last game. Later Tyrion did reach for his dragon and defeated the halfmaester. Viserion's gonna get wacked.

The next game we see him play is against Aegon and, in that same chapter, Tyrion plays against a Volantene who "moved his catapult again, closed his hand around Tyrion's alabaster dragon, removed it from the board." See why I think Viserion's gonna get wacked? And it looks like it might be from one if the six trebuchets at Meereen. My guess would be Dragonbreaker.

Perhaps Viserion get's hit by a trebuchet, leaving him crippled for a while (Tyrion always loved broken things). Tyrion might try to heal him, which might eventually prove succesful.

[Mithras]

This one understands.” Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, “It is said that the Yunkai’i have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.”

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Ser Grandfather have you forgotten Meraxes, who was slain by in iron bolt in Dorne? Missandei is a clever girl and she will prove to be right. Viserion will get a hit by an iron bolt. Tyrion will help Viserion heal and recover.

[Cubarey]

"Aboard the Shy Maid we first observe Tyrion play Cyvasse with Haldon. "Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it." He recalled losing his dragon to a trebuchet in his last game. Later Tyrion did reach for his dragon and defeated the halfmaester. Viserion's gonna get wacked. "

That a dragon in a game of Cyvasse can be taken out by a trebuchet, is hardly proof that army commanders are going to make the connection and plan battles accordingly. Might Tyrian, yes but he is a freaking genious. Your talking about people who have not seen a dragon in over a hundred years. The thing in their mind is that three dragons totally destroyed several armies during the conquest. Do you really think that the army leaders are going to develop a strategy to fight dragons off the cuff and that troops will not turn and run at the first sight of dragons instead of carrying out any such strategy? The history of warfare is quite clear, armies facing unknown or unfamiliar technalogies (and dragons are a technalogy for purposes of warfare) get crushed repeatedly before they develop strategies to combat the new technalogy (just look at what machine guns and tanks did in the first world war)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Perhaps Viserion get's hit by a trebuchet, leaving him crippled for a while (Tyrion always loved broken things). Tyrion might try to heal him, which might eventually prove succesful.

That's exactly what I think will happen. However, I'm thinking Brown Ben will ride him first...

Her captains bowed and left her with her handmaids and her dragons. But as Brown Ben was leaving, Viserion spread his pale white wings and flapped lazily at his head. One of the wings buffeted the sellsword in his face. The white dragon landed awkwardly with one foot on the man's head and one on his shoulder, shrieked, and flew off again. "He likes you, Ben " said Dany.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This one understands. Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, It is said that the Yunkaii have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.

Ser Barristan had heard that too. It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Ser Grandfather have you forgotten Meraxes, who was slain by in iron bolt in Dorne? Missandei is a clever girl and she will prove to be right. Viserion will get a hit by an iron bolt. Tyrion will help Viserion heal and recover.

All right, Paper Waver, a silver stag says it's a trebuchet, and a copper says it's Dragonbreaker...

[Lost Melnibonean]

"Aboard the Shy Maid we first observe Tyrion play Cyvasse with Haldon. "Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it." He recalled losing his dragon to a trebuchet in his last game. Later Tyrion did reach for his dragon and defeated the halfmaester. Viserion's gonna get wacked. "

That a dragon in a game of Cyvasse can be taken out by a trebuchet, is hardly proof that army commanders are going to make the connection and plan battles accordingly. Might Tyrian, yes but he is a freaking genious. Your talking about people who have not seen a dragon in over a hundred years. The thing in their mind is that three dragons totally destroyed several armies during the conquest. Do you really think that the army leaders are going to develop a strategy to fight dragons off the cuff and that troops will not turn and run at the first sight of dragons instead of carrying out any such strategy? The history of warfare is quite clear, armies facing unknown or unfamiliar technalogies (and dragons are a technalogy for purposes of warfare) get crushed repeatedly before they develop strategies to combat the new technalogy (just look at what machine guns and tanks did in the first world war)

Um, no. I'm not too sure of military history involving dragon warfare but it looked like a hint to the reader from The George. Take it or leave it.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

This one understands. Missandei turned as if to go, then paused a moment and said, It is said that the Yunkaii have ringed the city all about with scorpions, to loose iron bolts into the sky should Drogon return.

Ser Barristan had heard that too. It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.

Missandei nodded. It was hard to tell if she was reassured.

Ser Grandfather have you forgotten Meraxes, who was slain by in iron bolt in Dorne? Missandei is a clever girl and she will prove to be right. Viserion will get a hit by an iron bolt. Tyrion will help Viserion heal and recover.

Tyrion also seems to have forgotten that Meraxes was killed in this way. He thinks to himself that the Yunkai are wasting their time with crossbows and the like