Speaking Up: My Tale of Fearing a Beating

[Knez Snow]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ this site provides insight into nature of violence, and self defense, like social skills, psychology and everything, not "karate". I guess it could help in this kinds of situations.

[Fez]

Just gonna say, I did not realize such things could happen on the DC metro. Every time I'm on it late at night I see about a half dozen police around (not all in one place; spread around enough to be a visible presence), and everything's calm.

[north of the wall]

Sometimes putting yourself at risk is worth it and other times it is not and it is simply something only you yourself can judge.

My dad was on a train come home from work years ago and there was a guy being verbally abusive to his girlfriend on the train. My dad told him to show a bit more respect anf the guy stopped. But when my dad was getting off the train at hus stop the guy booted him in the back and sent him flying on the platform.

I as a female usually feel uncomfortable steppeing into a situatiin I may feel unsafe witb but my hubby will always say something if he feels its necessary.

I have jumped in the middle of a domestic fight before though to try to save a friend from her partner but hubby told me off because he was worried about my well being.

sometimes we can only judge a situation in a split second while our partners may be worried about us we know we did what we thought was right. It sounds like you did the right thing and handled it very well. Good job MC!

[Kat]

My thoughts as well. A very fine line between being brave and stupid. Unfortunately, I think MC was on the wrong side this time. Don't get me wrong, it is noble to stand up to the homophobic nonsense, but since it does not appear anyone was being bullied or threatened, he ratcheted up the chance of a fight for a questionable benefit. It might be all the nonsensical killings over stupid shit, but best to turn the other cheek so you don't end up dead in a ditch...unless there is some quantifiable benefit (e.g. stopping someone from being bullied).

Stop and drop everything, but I agree with Tempra. If this was anger directed toward someone or threatening someone, I'd step in, but it already sounds like this guy was a raving drunk and no one was particularly listening to him. Engaging in argumentation is all cons and no pros; even if you get in a fight he's not going to change his opinion or stop. He's drunk. That is not his mindset. I think there are ways to de-escalate the situation but that's not what you went looking for.

I guess my innate reaction is to never engage in physical altercations unless it's a defensive thing. I have broken up fights and potential fights between students before. We have some really dumb violence between students at my school; literally every fight that has resulted in suspensions this year has been between girls, and it's always because of some perceived slight. I have to talk to kids a lot about how you come out looking a lot worse getting into a fight over dumb shit than you did from whatever that person said, but it's really hard to talk someone out of their personal concept of honor around fights. So, that being said, I don't admire what you did on the subway. I think it's irrational (although it's easy for me to see nearly everyone I know getting into this altercation). But I admire you for asking about it and having an open mind to see why kair thinks the way she does.

[Kelli Fury]

I think you did the right thing, Chef, even with the possibility of a boot party getting thrown in your honor (though I can totally see why Kair would rather you be safe). It won't be until it is completely socially unacceptable to act like those guys that people will actually stop doing it. And, it won't become socially unacceptable if everyone keeps quiet in situations like these. I would definitely gotten way in their faces, but, since I'm a lady, it is socially unacceptable for them to hit me. I am also great at being hit. I get head butted by 1300 lb livestock, I've been kicked and bitten by them, I worked a haunted house getting punched in the face by grown men all through high school, I have siblings- all hitting me will do is make me mad. And as soon as you do, in that scenario, you're not getting out of that car without a beating and likely an arrest waiting on the other end. So, it's easier to be brave having so much less skin in the game. But, I'm glad you did it, and I'm glad you're safe. You probably didn't change that guy's mind, but I'd say there's a good chance another person or two went to bed reflecting on their inaction. Maybe that's just as good. Maybe the next train car they get in will have two guys to tell them to stfu

[john]

You definitely did the right thing if you think that even saying these things under any circumstances should be ostracised, as most people do. I seriously doubt I'd have done the same so fair play to you.

I'm surprised the guy himself wasn't more chastened, he must've been a genuine bastard. But luckily his friends seemed to recognise he was in the wrong, as I think people do more often than not when called on it.

[Maithanet]

I guess I fall much closer to the cowardly side, but I don't see any benefit in angrily confronting a drunk guy on the metro for his offensive rantings. Speaking up in that situation is indeed dangerous, and for minimal gain. If he were drunkenly yelling at someone or being aggressive in a dangerous way, that would be a different matter, but it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Contemplating a preemptive strike with a beer bottle sounds like an absolutely atrocious idea. I think taking a beating would be a much better idea, personally. I would fully expect his friends to step in if you did that, and unless you are looking to get in a fight with four drunk guys in a crowded metro, that seems like a deadly situation for everyone involved. A potentially fatal beating and a jail sentence for attempted murder/murder are both real possibilities.

I'm glad that you didn't go there, and came out safe.

[Tears of Lys]

I think Naz pretty much won the thread. He made even me think.

[Arkhangel]

I was followed home by several Turkish dudes when I lived overseas after I spoke up to them when they began calling an old lady in the train the c word, talking about her genitals and saying what they would do to her, etc. I was so pissed off that nobody else was telling them to stop that I forgot to tell them to STFU in German. I stood up like the ugly American I am and told them to STFU, who do you think you are, yadda yadda. In English haha.

Scared the living SHIT out of me, but it was worth it. I believe sticking up for someone else - even if that person is yourself or a random person on a train... is never the wrong thing to do, no matter the outcome. That Marine in your train should have been put in jail. He probably will someday with that kind of attitude.

Put in jail for being a drunk homophobic arsehole on a train? Being a drunk homophobic arsehole makes you, well, an arsehole cubed, but it's not something that we imprison people for (unlike glassing someone in the face).

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Put in jail for being a drunk homophobic arsehole on a train? Being a drunk homophobic arsehole makes you, well, an arsehole cubed, but it's not something that we imprison people for (unlike glassing someone in the face).

Even though he didn't throw a punch, I believe what he did would qualify as assault. IANAL

In Florida, I'm pretty sure MC could have gotten away with shooting him.

[kairparavel]

Could we maybe dial this back to the actual event?

Jesus Christ.

[kairparavel]

I don't know that the hypothetical of what MC legally could have done in another state is relevant. He does not and would not carry a gun, for example. And he lives here, not there.

Or more to the point, imagine what GOD knows someone else could do, legally, in Texas.

[TerraPrime]

Naz is right.

But de-escalation techniques and assertive confrontation without aggravating a situation is a learned skill. We cannot expect most people to just fall into that skill by talent at birth.

Some things from my perspective:

I have been in a public space where someone else was uttering homophobic and racist slurs. It was highly uncomfortable, infuriating, and often, intimidating, because it often was a case where they were with friends and I was not. It made me fear whether they would target me with escalating violence. Having grown up in HK I did learn my city-survival instincts and I would probably size the place around for exit or assistance. In that sense, it is not necessary that you speak up and confront them, as long as I know that you might just jump in to help if they turn on me. So, disapproving looks, and obvious body language, like standing up and staring at them, would work to offer some reassurance. That said, someone who actually spoke up would definitely be appreciated for the effort and the risk they take on.

Another point to consider is who else can help de-escalate. If the asshole is with friends, if they look slightly embarassed or if they're not actively egging him on, appealing to them might be more useful. A rueful grin and a "is he always like this when he's drunk" to one of his friends might be less confrontational, and still get the point across.

Finally, threatening to call the police, or actually calling the police loud enough for them to hear might also scare some of these people off.

But, no matter what you do, there's a risk, because drunk assholes do not behave rationally, and often times, neither do aggressive bullies. You have no idea what might trigger a full-on attack from them.

[Shryke]

You definitely did the right thing if you think that even saying these things under any circumstances should be ostracised, as most people do. I seriously doubt I'd have done the same so fair play to you.

I'm surprised the guy himself wasn't more chastened, he must've been a genuine bastard. But luckily his friends seemed to recognise he was in the wrong, as I think people do more often than not when called on it.

Why would a drunken asshole be chastened?

From everything described, the guy is not going to undergo any sort of personal reflection, especially in the state he was in at the time. Which is why the chances of gaining anything from escalating the situation are basically nil.

Hell, his friends didn't even seem to recognize he was in the wrong for what he said, only for almost starting a fist fight with a random guy on the subway.

[TerraPrime]

But I don't think you'd stand up to confront drunk assholes like that for the benefits of the drunk assholes because, as you said, they're drunk and won't remember a thing. I think you'd do it for your own sake and possibly for the sake of others on the train.

[MercenaryChef]

I did it because it needed to be done. The ugly language needed called out. I did not need to be as aggressive, but I was angry.

Of the twenty or so people on the train car I could not have been the only person being offended.

[Shryke]

But I don't think you'd stand up to confront drunk assholes like that for the benefits of the drunk assholes because, as you said, they're drunk and won't remember a thing. I think you'd do it for your own sake and possibly for the sake of others on the train.

Agreed there but considering he's both drunk and ranting at no one in particular and not being supported by anyone else on the train or anything, I don't think you are really accomplishing much of anything. And taking a big risk doing so.

[Relic]

Agreed there but considering he's both drunk and ranting at no one in particular and not being supported by anyone else on the train or anything, I don't think you are really accomplishing much of anything. And taking a big risk doing so.

Some risks are worth taking. Especially if there were people in the train who were being offended but were unable to stand up for themselves. At the very least MC might have inspired a few folks to speak up next time the same thing happened around them.

At worst he proved to himself, if no one else, that there are still people in the US who don't totally have their heads up their own asses and are willing to step in and stand up to a bully.

[Castel]

That's...not the "at worst".

[Relic]

That's...not the at worst.

Based on what ended up happening yes it is.

I don't get all this shit about the situation being so dangerous. If staring down a drunken asshole is the most dangerous thing you have done in the last year you either lead an extremely sheltered and/or boring life. Besides the dangerous dudes are not normally the loud ones.