Speaking Up: My Tale of Fearing a Beating

[Xray the Enforcer]

It is possible that people were watching to see if the situation escalated any further before they were going to intervene. I can think of a couple of situations that I have observed that did not involve me that I absolutely wanted to stay out of... but where I thought, 'if this situation becomes violent, I will help this person.' Of course that isn't very comforting to the person who first spoke up, not knowing that you can definitely count on others to help you out.

This is how I usually react. I get up and move toward the conflict (usually careful to stay out of arm's reach and in the line of sight of the victim, not the aggressor, so they know that they might have backup), but I will not engage until it escalates to the beatdown stage. I would say that most people on the NYC subway line that I take are like this -- they won't avoid a conflict, but they won't jump in until it's absolutely necessary, because these things usually de-escalate without outside intervention.

One thing nobody will intervene on is gang violence, though. That's a recipe for getting shot or knifed.

[BigFatCoward]

I just got back from the pub and i'm drunk and trying not to be an arsehole. but if you don't do what MC did you are ....... fucking cowardly. if you were the person being abused would you look at the other travellers and think 'that's ok, they are protecting themselves' or would you think 'please, somebody help me'. I would always rather be the 'help me' person.

[polishgenius]

I probably wouldn't have said anything in the initial instance, though if I did I'd certainly have done it politely. I'd definitely have backed you up once he was threatening you. Like a few other people have said, that would be the line for me - I'm not going to put myself in the spotlight if there's nothing going on that's aimed at anyone in particular but (I really hope- I've not been in that sort of high-tension situation for a long time) I'd step in on someone else's behalf.

[kungtotte]

You will have to fight sometimes though.

We're talking about someone that is clearly uninhibited and almost certainly irrational. Once you get their attention then it is no longer up to you. You don't decide if you fight, they do. And they cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions- or decisions that are beneficial to you.

Right, you always have to be aware of the fact that it can escalate and that is why kair is understandably upset. But the post I was replying to made it seem like the only two options were to shut up or slug it out.

[Arkhangel]

I think one of the safest and yet still effective way you can respond to that kind of behaviour is to move away really obviously.* Look at them like they're a leper, and leave. Get as many people as possible to leave with you. No one likes social rejection; you can make them feel that their behaviour is unacceptable without putting yourself in harm's way and without needing to say a word.

* where physically possible, obviously, which I know is not always the case

[Inigima]

That is a hard thing to do in, for example, a Metro car.

[Masonity]

no doubt if you had hit him with the bottle, it would have been you facing charges, because justice. :rolleyes:

Uh, yeah.

The other guy was being a drunken asshole.

If you hit a drunken assholes in the face with a bottle, without him instigating violence, then being charged is justice. There are several levels of escalation between "drunken aggressive posturing" and "Grievous Bodily Harm".

[Arkhangel]

That is a hard thing to do in, for example, a Metro car.

Yes, which is why I wrote '* where physically possible, obviously, which I know is not always the case'

[Tears of Lys]

I know it is pretty dishonorable, but if I had observed this situation as someone who didn't know anyone involved I would position myself to sucker punch the belligerent drunk and try to knock him out if he makes a move. I am not physically intimidating enough that me puffing up and getting in his face is going to make a big drunk guy back down and its not a time for a nice, fair fist-fight. So its better that they are not aware of me while I plan my ambush.

I'm a big fan of the sucker-punch-then-quick-getaway. Honor doesn't play into it when you're dealing with assholes.

[Tempra]

Uh, yeah.

The other guy was being a drunken asshole.

If you hit a drunken assholes in the face with a bottle, without him instigating violence, then being charged is justice. There are several levels of escalation between "drunken aggressive posturing" and "Grievous Bodily Harm".

That's if you are fortunate enough to still be alive. Starting a physical confrontation with a beer bottle? Better win that fight or else be prepared to die...

[naz]

With what little I know of you and kair, I can only assume that much of the reason why you are together is because she admires the fact that you would stand up to something as obviously wrong as that, but would probably prefer you did so in a less aggressive way. That's not to say you were asking for a fight, or physically threatening anyone with violence, but by your own admission, you confronted him with aggressive words and, in that particular situation, the only thing that really could've been expected to happen was that the guy would've threatened to physically assault you. In other words... maybe if you'd responded to his flagrant stupidity with something like, "Hey man... that ain't cool. That's pretty offensive." then there might have been a lesser chance of him wanting to beat the shit out of you than because you said "Shut the fuck up, etc. etc." (paraphrasing).

I haven't been in a physical fight since I was in 6th grade, and despite the fact that I've had some martial arts training, I abhor violence, even when justified. I may be able to remember a few defensive moves to save my ass in an altercation, but overall, I'm probably going to lose most fights I might hypothetically get in because I'm out of shape, haven't trained in over 20 years, and really, really, really, really don't want to fight anyone.

That said, I do tend to be somewhat of a vigilante against public misbehavior or lack of public civility, but I try to respond as politely as possible, so as to avoid sinking to their level. So, e.g., here in India where people throw shit on the road all the time, when I see someone purposely drop a candy wrapper or something, I pick it up and ask the offender "Excuse me, I think you dropped something?" and then just see what happens. Yes, occasionally, I get into lecture mode, especially when the offenders are younger than me and I'm pretty sure they're not going to beat me up, but mostly I choose my battles. When people don't stand in line, I ask them to get in line and mostly they do. Once, when buying tickets for some monument (I was with sightseeing friends), I saw a couple of young guys in front of me leering at a pretty girl a few feet away. This was pretty soon after the gang-rape incident and I was probably more on edge about that sort of thing than usual, so I asked those guys what they were looking at, and when they said 'nothing' (of course), I took them to task for being lecherous fools. I asked them to go call their sisters so that I could stare at her the way they were staring at the girl. I'm pretty sure I didn't change their thinking, but at least they stopped leering at the girl.

If I was in your shoes that evening on the metro, I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd probably not do anything because: 1) I know it wouldn't change their behavior an iota, and 2) it would probably result in me and maybe others getting physically harmed for essentially nothing. Of course, if they were actually abusing or bullying someone on the train, I'd probably intervene (and have done so before) or call a police officer, but in this case where the abusive language was mostly not directed to anyone in the vicinity, I would've just shook my head and let sleeping dogs lie.

Again, choose your battles, and for kair's sake, when you do see a wrong that just has to be addressed, then try not to do it aggressively.

[Relic]

I would have done the same thing. I've gotten myself into a couple of situations in the last two months that were very close to becoming violent, much to the dismay and anger of my female travel companion. However I always felt I was standing up for someone else in these situations and I have no issues with how I acted. Kudos to you for speaking up.

[MercenaryChef]

naz, i have so much admiration and respect for you. i wish i had not responded as aggressively as i did. i have a really rough time not letting my emotions get the better of me.

[davos]

Standing up for one's principals is important but so is choosing your fights carefully. In this case, unless I read the OP wrong, while they were throwing homophobic slang around freely, and generally being assholes, they were not directing this at a specific individual or individuals. To me that is the kind of thing that is best just to ignore. Saying something is as likely to escalate the situation as it is lead the drunks to shut up, or at least move their intoxicated rantings to less offensive topics. For me, I would ignore the situation. If the comments were directed at an individual, especially if they were clearly having difficulty dealing with it, I would feel a duty to say something, and be prepared to deal with fallout from doing so.

Of course, I am not judging MC's handling of the situation. Being stuck in close quarters with drunken assholes is difficult, and if they become offensive rather than just irritating, its not unreasonable to call them out on their bullshit. Personally I would have handled the situation, as presented, a bit differently, but that's me.

[Eponine]

My perception is that if you don't LOOK physically intimidating enough to be a threat as backup, speaking up after the first person can escalate rather than de-escalate the situation. When someone's that drunk, more people getting up to confront him can create a situation where he feels like he can't back down. So personally, being a small person, I would do my best to help the person who spoke up if things escalated, but until then would sit quietly in hopes that the drunk person would decide to calm down and not become violent at all.

I'll bet that the person who feels really disappointed that no one backed him up is the first guy who asked them to stop in fear they'd hit his pregnant wife.

[naz]

Kind words, Chef, but you are who you are and don't change it. But your wife is one of my favorite people too, and I understand very well some of what she's probably thinking. I'm probably overstating how calm and polite I am in these situations. Sure, I won't cuss or threaten violence, but I've been known to get worked up and all up in someone's face for doing something as minor as cutting in line. And my wife repeatedly tries to make sure I don't lose my cool and I love her for it because she's played a great part in making me a calmer and cooler person over the years. Most people who've met me now don't realize it, but I can have a pretty bad temper when provoked. Since I don't believe in physically hurting anyone, I've mostly tended to take it out on myself or things around me (like punching a wall or throwing something and breaking it). Those days are (mostly) behind me because my wife has made me realize the futility of such behavior and man, am I grateful to her for it.

So, yeah. Continue to fight the good fight and stand up to injustice and intolerance, but try to figure out a way to do it that keeps you safe and your wife at ease.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

naz, i have so much admiration and respect for you. i wish i had not responded as aggressively as i did. i have a really rough time not letting my emotions get the better of me.

Well, at least you kept yourself from busting out that bottle :)

Hindsight's always 20/20 and it's always much easier for all of us to SAY "I would" or "you should" handle Situation X with Tactic Y in the abstract (or on an internet message board, as the case may be). When you're in the middle of it, it's another matter. Often times none of us really know how we'd deal with something until we're put in a position where we have to deal with it, whether we think we're "ready" or not.

All we can do is the best we can.

Basically,

kair is pissed. i love her more than all the bacon, beer and metal in the world, but she is pissed. she loves that i have standards of conduct and principles but fears me getting my lovely head beaten in one day. i totally get that. but, as a person i cannot sit quietly while that sort of shit is said. i would feel like cowardly vermin if i did.

She's right, and so are you (not that either of you need my validation, of course). Maybe there's a "better" way to respond in that situation [then again, I wasn't there, so I'm not going to second guess] but I admire your responding.

"Sam" seems unlikely to change but that doesn't mean you didn't make a difference to/impression on somebody on that train. (Even if they didn't quite have the guts to say so at the time, even if they won't realize it until later, when they've had time to think about it.)

[Free Northman Reborn]

I don't quite understand the motivation behind the incident.

Are you saying you decided to provoke the crazy drunk guy because he was becoming a danger to other people on the train, or because he insulted gays in general?

If the latter, I just don't understand that motivation.

My view is quite simple. Protecting my loved ones from danger is paramount. If they were threatening my wife or child or sister or friend, I would risk a violent confrontation without hesitation to protect them. But if a drunk was mouthing off, insulting a group of people, I'm sorry, it's not worth getting killed or maimed over.

They could be insulting my particular religious group, social group, class, race, accent or ancestry. I really couldn't give a crap, because I don't give two hoots about some drunk idiot's opinion.

I really don't understand this sense of outrage because some derogatory language is being directed at a specific group of people. Note, the situation would be different if someone of that particular group was being directly targeted and ganged up on in the train car, at risk of violent assault.

But just generalized insults being hurled into the aether: Really not worth risking your family's breadwinner over.

That's my view, anyway.

[Shryke]

Standing up for one's principals is important but so is choosing your fights carefully. In this case, unless I read the OP wrong, while they were throwing homophobic slang around freely, and generally being assholes, they were not directing this at a specific individual or individuals. To me that is the kind of thing that is best just to ignore. Saying something is as likely to escalate the situation as it is lead the drunks to shut up, or at least move their intoxicated rantings to less offensive topics. For me, I would ignore the situation. If the comments were directed at an individual, especially if they were clearly having difficulty dealing with it, I would feel a duty to say something, and be prepared to deal with fallout from doing so.

Of course, I am not judging MC's handling of the situation. Being stuck in close quarters with drunken assholes is difficult, and if they become offensive rather than just irritating, its not unreasonable to call them out on their bullshit. Personally I would have handled the situation, as presented, a bit differently, but that's me.

I'm with Davos here. The situation is one with minimal gain and huge huge risks. You can get yourself killed or seriously hurt and the drunks will learn nothing.

I don't fault any of the other passengers for not wanting to get involved in a potentially life-threatening situation over drunken stupidity.

[Balefont]

Yep. I've been in similar situations to MC and basically had to let it ride -- I am not going to win too many serious fist-fights. But I've also intervened in situations where I thought I had a decent chance of not getting beat down or shot, and told plenty of people to shut the fuck up on the subway.

Yup. Exactly.