MLB Offseason : Awards Abound

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Look at Barry Bonds' career back when he had a small head. There's no question he was Hall of Fame bound. Dude had 3 MVPs in the early 90s.

Granted, there's no question he was using in the late 90's/early 2000's. But there's all kinds of cheaters in the Hall from the 70's and far worse human beings like Ty Cobb and I'm sure plenty we don't know about. I'm fine with discounting the edge gained from PEDs with HoF eligible players but as far as there being some moral standard to becoming a Hall of Famer, the horse left the barn a long time ago on that.

I agree with you that he was an HoFer before hitting the roids, but I still believe that keeping him out of the Hall is an appropriate punishment.

And to Kair, I get your point, but when it's clear that a player has been using, he should be creamed. :cool4:

ETA: I suppose I'd be okay with letting them in, just as long as a big disclaimer was added to their plaque/bust. Something along the lines of "This player clearly used PED's during their career, and this undoubtably affected their numbers."

[Bronn Stone]

I think the time has come to elect Shoeless Joe Jackson. Judge Landis made the right decision of banning him for life for being aware of the Black Sox and saying nothing. Commissioner Frick made the wrong call when he extended the lifetime ban to eternity.

I feel the same way about Pete. Pete should die never being SURE he'll get in.

As to Barry and Roger, I have no problem letting them sweat a while. They can use their perspiration to wash the bitter taste of their false denials out of their lying mouths.

Eventually, yeah sure. The era was the era.

[Jaime L]

And to Kair, I get your point, but when it's clear that a player has been using, he should be creamed. :cool4:

I see what you did there.

As to Barry and Roger, I have no problem letting them sweat a while. They can use their perspiration to wash the bitter taste of their false denials out of their lying mouths.

Eventually, yeah sure. The era was the era.

As long as they do get in, I guess I'm fine with them waiting. If it takes the Veterans Committee, fine.

Though in the meantime, gotta do something about how their (and other PED users) presence on the ballot and the 10 vote limit is diluting the chances of other worthy guys from making it, like Raines or Moose.

[lancerman]

I don't think Bonds and Clemens ever get it. Baseball more than any other sport is about the lore behind it. And when you have situations like Joe Jackson and Pete Rose not, and realistically ever, getting in these guys don't have shot. I get the argument that some guys will slip through the cracks and never get caught. But these guys were. The voters don't get the novelty of pleading ignorance with these two.

And I don't know if I'm all that broken up about it. This will actually do more for their legacy in the long run. They won't be forgotten. They'll be another story like Jackson and Rose. One of the fabled greatest players ever that broke the rules and don't get the chance to be honored in the Hall of Fame. There will always be the question marks about them, but whatever.

[Jaxom 1974]

Okay, I'm not really a person who wants the known steroids guys in the Hall, but what did Sammy Sosa do wrong that Bonds and Clemens command about 35% vote totals but Sammy only managed 6.6%?

He certainly had a better personality over all compared to those two.

[smegma]

Okay, I'm not really a person who wants the known steroids guys in the Hall, but what did Sammy Sosa do wrong that Bonds and Clemens command about 35% vote totals but Sammy only managed 6.6%?

He certainly had a better personality over all compared to those two.

Because no one believes that Sosa would have been a HoF'er without steroids. It's apparent that Bonds and Clemens were elite players even without assistance.

Also, a lot of people despise Sosa's personality too - and I am one of those - EVEN when he was with the White Sox. He always came across as a phony and I was glad to be rid of him, even if it was just for George Bell.

[Jaxom 1974]

Because no one believes that Sosa would have been a HoF'er without steroids. It's apparent that Bonds and Clemens were elite players even without assistance.

Also, a lot of people despise Sosa's personality too - and I am one of those - EVEN when he was with the White Sox. He always came across as a phony and I was glad to be rid of him, even if it was just for George Bell.

Ah. But if the line of, "we can't know everyone who took the stuff, so we can't rule anyone out" theory takes hold, hire do you exclude one of the few 600+ home run guys?

I'm not saying he should go. I'm not suggesting that his true personality made him a saint, but when it came to working the press, real or not, he came off much more affable than Clemens, Bonds, or even McGuire. It's remarkable what his exit from Chicago did to his "reputation".

They're actually discussing this right this moment on the Score.

[Bronn Stone]

HoF voting does not require the same burden of proof as criminal law. That having been said, HoF voting does not require even good sense - witness that some voters chose to NOT vote for Willie Mays or Ted Williams or Hank Aaron when their turns came up.

[Jaxom 1974]

HoF voting does not require the same burden of proof as criminal law. That having been said, HoF voting does not require even good sense - witness that some voters chose to NOT vote for Willie Mays or Ted Williams or Hank Aaron when their turns came up.

Granted.

I just found it anecdotally intriguing.

[Fez]

Ah. But if the line of, "we can't know everyone who took the stuff, so we can't rule anyone out" theory takes hold, hire do you exclude one of the few 600+ home run guys?

I'm not saying he should go. I'm not suggesting that his true personality made him a saint, but when it came to working the press, real or not, he came off much more affable than Clemens, Bonds, or even McGuire. It's remarkable what his exit from Chicago did to his "reputation".

They're actually discussing this right this moment on the Score.

Maybe its because Sosa was only great at one aspect of the game, hitting, which is also the aspect most commonly associated with PEDs? Whereas Bonds was great at all aspects of the game (8 gold gloves vs. 0; 514 stolen bases vs. 234), and Clemens benefits from the bias the HoF has towards pitchers (77 of the 240 player inductees are pitchers; no other position has more than 24 members).

[Jaime L]

Maybe its because Sosa was only great at one aspect of the game, hitting, which is also the aspect most commonly associated with PEDs? Whereas Bonds was great at all aspects of the game (8 gold gloves vs. 0; 514 stolen bases vs. 234), and Clemens benefits from the bias the HoF has towards pitchers (77 of the 240 player inductees are pitchers; no other position has more than 24 members).

That actually sounds like a bias against pitching as, sure, pitching is one position among 9. But somewhere around half of an MLB roster is made of pitchers. I get the age of pitching specialization is relatively new but still a bit surprised under 1/3rd of the HoF is pitchers.

[Fez]

That actually sounds like a bias against pitching as, sure, pitching is one position among 9. But somewhere around half of an MLB roster is made of pitchers. I get the age of pitching specialization is relatively new but still a bit surprised under 1/3rd of the HoF is pitchers.

Yeah, but most of those pitchers are relievers who don't have a chance of making the HoF (its 72 starters, 5 relievers). Its really just the starters, which is five, maybe six, roster spots, and used to be four (or even three).

Note that I'm not sure if that 77 includes Johnson, Pedro, and Smoltz or if the number is 80 now.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Much like Pete Rose will eventually get another look... After he's dead...

Schilling wasn't that great in the regular season, was he? Post Season though...

Schilling was very good in the regular season. Granted, he only had three 20 win seasons, but remember the first half of his career was as a Philly during their terrible years in the '90's, fluke WS appearance in 1993 notwithstanding. And then when he finally got to good teams in Arizona and Boston, he was number two to Johnson and Martinez respectively. Sure, he only made six All-Star teams, but he was second in Cy Young voting three times. He's fifteenth overall in strikeouts, fourth in K:BB ratio, 47th in WHIP, and 21st in K's per 9 innings. Sure, he only had 216 wins, but there are a few HOFers with less. And I'm of the opinion that wins are less important for an individual pitcher than most other stats, as it can be greatly influenced by how the rest of your team is playing. You can let by six runs in five innings and get the win and you can pitch for eight innings, let by one run, and get the loss. You still need a respectable winning percentage to get into the HOF, but it's not the end-all-be-all in evaluating a pitcher's skills.

I'll grant that Schilling isn't the no-brainer that Johnson and Martinez are, but he was still a great pitcher even before you consider his postseason successes, which is the final factor that puts him in, imo. Still, I'm not entirely surprised he didn't get in this year. It's tough to go from less than half of the votes in one year and get in the next. I'm more disappointed Piazza didn't get in.

[Reny of Storms End]

I always thought basically the only player to emerge from the steroid era without any suspicion was Jr. Do you all think he used?

[smegma]

I always thought basically the only player to emerge from the steroid era without any suspicion was Jr. Do you all think he used?

Jim Thome, Ken Griffey Jr., and Frank Thomas were the only Hall of Fame-caliber sluggers thought to be almost definitely clean - which is why those three are not only first-ballot no-brainers, but will be rewarded with the support while others that have only had slight suspicions - like Bagwell and Piazza - will get in eventually.

Pitchers not only have the advantage of getting into the Hall with greater frequency, but were also less likely to come under suspicion during the steroid era. There may have been just as many of them that juiced, but it was less obviously so unless you were caught in the scandal like Clemens. Thus you'll keep seeing an influx of pitchers while hitters will have to wait longer.

[Drogon'sWrath]

I always thought basically the only player to emerge from the steroid era without any suspicion was Jr. Do you all think he used?

I'd be very surprised if it turned out he used. Same as with Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. I mean, there are people that think literally everyone was using, but the general consensus is that these three didn't use anything. It's a shame he was hurt a lot though. I get the feeling he would have had a good chance to reach700 without the injuries. Wouldn't have broken the record, but Griffey > Bonds w/o steroids.

[Jaxom 1974]

I always thought basically the only player to emerge from the steroid era without any suspicion was Jr. Do you all think he used?

Frank Thomas. I'll give that bastard DH his due.

[Jaxom 1974]

Maybe its because Sosa was only great at one aspect of the game, hitting, which is also the aspect most commonly associated with PEDs? Whereas Bonds was great at all aspects of the game (8 gold gloves vs. 0; 514 stolen bases vs. 234), and Clemens benefits from the bias the HoF has towards pitchers (77 of the 240 player inductees are pitchers; no other position has more than 24 members).

I hope I vac make some sense of what I'm going to say here.

Thinking on this statement, that he was a one dimensional player, then he was essentially a DH then, right? If you remove the aspect of PEDs from his candidacy, you can't exclude Sosa based on his one sided nature and still advocate for DH candidates, can you?

[GrimTuesday]

Yet another year of seeing Edgar not get the respect he deserves. I get the objection that he was primarily a DH, but when you consider how good he was at that (Randy, Pedro, and Mo have all said he was the best hitter they faced, or something to that effect), I don't get how you can not vote for him. The backlog hurts him too, but the fact that a good number of Baseball writers main objection is his being a DH is just plain foolish. If you have a position, and the Hall of Fame is to hold up the best players at their position, you can't discriminate against DH's.

[Fez]

I hope I vac make some sense of what I'm going to say here.

Thinking on this statement, that he was a one dimensional player, then he was essentially a DH then, right? If you remove the aspect of PEDs from his candidacy, you can't exclude Sosa based on his one sided nature and still advocate for DH candidates, can you?

Well, there's a reason there's only 1 DH in the hall; there's definitely a mindset against them. I'd put Sosa in though, along with all the best DHs. Eventually, I want to see David Ortiz in there (and I think he eventually will be. The overall numbers outside the postseason are pretty borderline, but that postseason stuff is incredible. Also, the press loves him; and there's the whole 'face of the game' think he was sharing with Jeter for a while).