[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Red Helm]

2 hours ago, SuperMario said:

And while I know the books will give a much deeper and better presentation of both, it just angers me that two dumb ass hacks like Dan and Dave get to be the ones to spoil such rich literary history.

Careful now. People tend to get furious when it's suggested that A Song of Ice and Fire is far more than mediocre pop-rubbish.

[SuperMario]

12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Absolutely, given the fact that the Tullys have so many troops, they can easily spare an army corps or two.

Right? It's not like they literally have armies on every side of their borders to deal with and have their heir being held hostage. BUT...if Batfinger can loan his teleporter to all the Tully soldiers, they can jump over the Freys, Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers and straight to the Wall!

 

[Ibbison from Ibben]

47 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

1. Ramsay was not defending Moat Cailen, the fortress which guards the entrance to his realm, in spite of the fact that he is an enemy of the state now and has just executed a member of house Frey - geographically the closet neighbor he has. This indicates gross incompetence.

We could fill up an entire 200 page thread specifically dedicated to R&R concerning Moat Cailin

[OldGimletEye]

Brienne: Blackfish, give me an army!
Blackfish: Brienne, I don't have an army to give you. I don't even have enough troops to defend against the Lannisters and the Tyrells.
Brienne: Yeah, but how about that army you misplaced and forgot about around Harrenhal?
Blackfish: Right, I forgot about that one. I hate it when I misplace and forget about an army, like it's an old picture or something.

[Clegane'sPup]

Hold the door indeed. There was no actual door at the entrance of the cave why the hell would there be an actual door at the back entrance which is down a sinkhole approximately 10 miles away from the front entrance.

Hold the door. No, just no.  Well, I guess Hodor dying this way is a way to deal the issue that Hodor can’t carry Bran around in a basket on his back any longer.

[Tijgy]

11 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

We could fill up an entire 200 page thread specifically dedicated to R&R concerning Moat Cailin

hahaha

I will never forget going around MC.

[Antonio81]

the episode was more less consistent with the rest of the season. Few scenes sufficiently performed, and many others that send the eyes spinning. However, I do not see what is the big problem with the time travelling issue.

What Bran performed is not time travelling, that is sending visions in the past, which is the same as receiving a prophecy in the present.

The same way Cersei is told what will happen which makes her take bad decisions to prevent the inevitable, thus making her the architect of the events she so desperately want to prevent.

Willys was prophecized by greenvision how he would die: holding a door to allow an escape. In no way this information has made him do it, he would have done it all the same even if he had been sentient and not turning into "Hodor".

[maicao]

This time paradox stuff makes no sense... BR says they can't change the past, what about the present? Why didn't he stop Bran from meeting  NK... none of this shit would have happened...

[jbent87]

14 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Hold the door indeed. There was no actual door at the entrance of the cave why the hell would there be an actual door at the back entrance which is down a sinkhole approximately 10 miles away from the front entrance.

 

Hold the door. No, just no.  Well, I guess Hodor dying this way is a way to deal the issue that Hodor can’t carry Bran around in a basket on his back any longer.

 

maybe the way this plays out in TWOW is "x" happens at the Cave forcing Bran and co. to retreat and then Hodor "holds the door" at a remote cabin a mile out from the cave where the group reconvenes before the wights show up. Cabin door makes a little more sense than hidden cave exit door.

[Ruhail]

So Brutiene you're still moaning and bitching about Stannis in Castle black of all places eh Well...

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13254077_880879295391914_3686015069925188256_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=a52b138536595d3fd6487b05715827da&oe=57DA2CC7 

[ambi76]

Okay, my fanwanking, about the Children creating the WW and stuff:

COtF= represent nature. Humans show up, fuck shit up as they do, seasons become wonky (global climate change metapher?) COtF want to stop it and create the WW except that doesn't work and makes it even worse (climate engeneering metapher?) Wall goes up, winter and WW get held back as good as possible, you can't explain that...

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

So Brutiene you're still moaning and bitching about Stannis in Castle black of all places eh Well...

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13254077_880879295391914_3686015069925188256_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=a52b138536595d3fd6487b05715827da&oe=57DA2CC7 

Hee hee hee...    

[Tijgy]

14 minutes ago, Antonio81 said:

the episode was more less consistent with the rest of the season. Few scenes sufficiently performed, and many others that send the eyes spinning. However, I do not see what is the big problem with the time travelling issue.

What Bran performed is not time travelling, that is sending visions in the past, which is the same as receiving a prophecy in the present.

The same way Cersei is told what will happen which makes her take bad decisions to prevent the inevitable, thus making her the architect of the events she so desperately want to prevent.

Willys was prophecized by greenvision how he would die: holding a door to allow an escape. In no way this information has made him do it, he would have done it all the same even if he had been sentient and not turning into "Hodor".

I agree with this  

[Ser Quork]

1 hour ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I have a metric fuckton to say about the LF/Sansa scenes.

Skipping LF's capacity to teleport (why bother? It doesn't seem to bother any critics, so why should it bother me? Anyone can get anywhere in any amount of time now, because that's good storytelling) we start with Sansa explaining to LF how she suffered at the hands of Ramsay. I was puzzled as to why we were doing this until I later realized that Ramsay wasn't in this episode, which might mean that some viewers forget how evil he is. Well avoided D and D! And despite the subject matter I found myself laughing incredible hard when Sansa said "You freed me from the monsters who murdered my family, and you gave me to other monsters who murdered my family." There it is in black and white. We've been saying it for over a year and now the characters are finally realizing it. But you don't get any points back from your stupid plot last year by pointing out how stupid it was this year.

Interestingly, and in keeping with how the show has been trying to push the "girl power" narrative, Sansa's attitude in this scene moves away from the "hardened woman making a choice" comments made by the writers last year and dumps blame squarely on LF's head. I'm not trying to victim blame, but I will say that Sansa did go to Winterfell at LF's instruction. The abuse was no ones fault but Ramsays - but Sansa still passively accepted the plan outlined in s5 ep3 by LF and now mocked here by Sansa. Pointing out how stupid it all was after the fact makes her at best an idiot and at worst a hypocrite. One of the main reasons why I always scoffed at those critics using historical context to make sense of Sansa's marriage or say that it started a "debate" about sexual violence is that Sansa went to marry her enemies voluntarily thanks to a half baked and nonsensical effort to get revenge; a decision which no sane person in the history of woman kind has ever made. So how useful is it in discussing anything if it has no bearing in reality? For the creators to try and step back from what they presented last year is cowardly in the extreme.

LF explains that the vale Lords have occupied Moat Cailen, a piece of exposition so ridiculous it takes my breath away. In order for this to make sense, one of these must be true:

1. Ramsay was not defending Moat Cailen, the fortress which guards the entrance to his realm, in spite of the fact that he is an enemy of the state now and has just executed a member of house Frey - geographically the closet neighbor he has. This indicates gross incompetence.

2. Ramsay allowed a foreign army to occupy his own territory based on the dodgy alliance his father (who he has subsequently murdered) made with LF, the shiftiest man in the seven kingdoms who gave them Sansa stark out of the kindness of his heart and who has now mustered an army to help Ramsay without even being asked. This indicates a child-like gullibility.

3. The Vale Knights have outright conquered a northern castle without repercussions and in astonishing little time. This indicates that the Castle fell without the need for ladders, rams or siege towers - perhaps LF teleported them inside.

But Sansa is having none of it. She is pissed at LF (who can blame her) and wants nothing more to do with him... or the massive army that is already encamped on foreign soil for her. This raises two more points.

1. Sansa is refusing the aid of the Vale because she dislikes LF, which is an emotional response worthy of her season 1 self.

2. Sansa (and the show itself) is assuming without evidence that LF and the Vale Knights are synonymous; a single political entity. Instead of rounding up the Northern lords, Sansa should instead make her case directly to Robin Arryn and Lord Royce, with the knowledge that LF is Lysa Arryn's killer as her ace in the hole. She is a blood relative of Robin and has been treated very well by Royce. These two make for natural allies against both the boltons and LF if she so chose. The show will inevitably team LF up with Sansa again, but separating him from Robin will never be considered in the show because we need the Vale Knights to save the day at the last minute and not a moment before. Apparently D and D are fans of Return of the King.

Once again, LF need only flash sansa a cheeky hint of his quasi irish accent and she's powerless before his machinations. We've had three episodes of happiness from Jon and Sansa, but because LF points out "heeeesssshhhh yer hurf breeeettthhhheeerrr" she starts lying to him and politically posturing. Consistency, thy name is GOT.

And the nail in the coffin; LF announces that Blackfish has taken Riverrun. Sansa seizes on the idea that a man surrounded by enemies on all sides is the perfect bloke to start sending her troops, but this idiocy isn't the hateful part. The worst part is that immediately after a conversation in which Sansa repudiates LF, says she hates and doesn't trust him, she starts acting upon unverified information that only he has told her. It was probably just a cheap way to get exposition across, but the show ignored the internal consistency of a single scene! How can anyone applaud the show when the characterization is sacrificed in an instant for the convieniance of the plot?

But who am I kidding? Sansa is a walking plot convenience, devoid of personality or character beyond experiencing misery. The first episode needed Theon to look brave, so Sansa was made afraid of icy water. The third episode needed Jon pushed out of his funk, so Sansa became a badass determined to get him back in the ring. The fifth episode needed LF to be chewed out but not actually effected politically, so Sansa shouts at him, then leaves him alone until ep 9 or whenever he returns with the Vale Knights et al. Whatever role the episode needs Sansa to play, she can play it, be it spoilt child, sex abuse victim or political schemer. But even I admit how rare it is to see her being all three in the same episode.

Just call me "The Dead Sea" because I'm salty as fuck. 

This post is a thing of beauty.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Someone has to save Meera and Bran, why not Benjen Ex Machina? LOL

Benhands.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

10 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I must say that the most alarming aspect of this ep is that D&D seem to have fully embraced the Heresy threads, and the mindless horde of TV fantypes have fully accepted it. It is unwise to underestimate the impact of large numbers of stupid people.

The Others are rather obviously among those who Sing the Song of Ice. The CotF Sing the Song of Earth. No, the CotF didn't create the Others. That would make the CotF out to be total idiots, since the Others turned out to be an existential threat to the CotF. Of course, Idiot Plots are a specialty of D&D, but it is disappointing that so many would fall for their moronicy. (Should I be disappointed that my spellchecker doesn't recognize "moronicy?)

Lol well as someone who's still wondering if that's a spoiler and have never considered myself mindless that seems a little much. People have lots of theories about the Others. I completely understand why you're arguing against it, but we don't actually know that much about the cotf or the Others, IMO, and how they survive/interact to call any theory about them 'mindless.' I'd guess if you're right and that's a plot point D&D made up then it'll be pretty 'mindless' considering that they don't bother to come up with plots that make sense most of the time. But, I don't see that the idea itself is mindless. Other people have come up with ideas like it before the show. Besides, having the Others be transformed humans is a lot more interesting than just having them be a different species, since the Other is traditionally actually another human. We have evidence in the book that they come about from transformed humans (Crasters sons). It's not a huge leap to assume that the first Other was probably a transformed human as well then, and who would have transformed him besides the cotf? The Others do seem like a huge threat to the cotf, but it's not moronic to consider that they might have created them I initially. It's not like there have never been people who create weapons that go wrong, whose power they don't realize and then regret. I assumed it was a spoiler as I don't see why D&D would have bothered going off book with the Others when George surely told them what they were. It's possible they did anyway. They definitely make plenty of choices I wouldn't. But I'm not going to dismiss the idea as clearly moronic. Though I retain the right to consider their further explanations or treatment of it as moronic 

 

[LazyBazooka]

5 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

So Brutiene you're still moaning and bitching about Stannis in Castle black of all places eh Well...

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13254077_880879295391914_3686015069925188256_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=a52b138536595d3fd6487b05715827da&oe=57DA2CC7 

Are we gonna talk about the fact that Davos STILL hasn't killed Brienne yet, and STILL doesn't know about Shireen. I don't think he's ever gonna find out, he'll be "too busy" gathering followers for Jonny Snoxville for the rest of the season.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

11 minutes ago, Edd Tollett's One Vote said:

Lol well as someone who's still wondering if that's a spoiler and have never considered myself mindless that seems a little much.

My apologies if I was a bit over the top with that post last night. I've always found that theory to be rather silly, and I indulged myself with an overly emotional rant. It was not targeted at those who thoughtfully consider the possibilities, but those who accepted the show version as instant fact. If it was taken differently, that was my fault for writing poorly. I should have been more reasonable and restrained.

[alienarea]

If it turns out to be Benjen ... what did he do all the time? Hang out with Arianne Martell on Skagos?

[TheCasualObserver]

5 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If it turns out to be Benjen ... what did he do all the time? Hang out with Arianne Martell on Skagos?

No. He's Gendry's rowing coach.

[Sir Loin Steak]

My main nitpicks for s6e5.

The Forgetful North

Why hasn't Ramsay-sue just marched up to Castle Black? It's idiotic to attack the Watch in the first place but he's decided on it. Fansa took an indirect route and got there some time ago (long enough that semi-omnicent Batfinger managed to ascertain that she was at the Wall and reach Mole's town and for her to start developing her own fashion line). The Watch has less than 100 men left and Castle Black is (supposedly) defenceless on the south side. The Bolton's forces alone completely wiped out Satannis' army, the same army that cut through the wilding host like a hot knife through butter. Now he's got lords lining up to reinforce him to boot. After multiple seasons of seeing him being depicted as completely unstoppable, the writers just have him wasting time at Winterfell because plot.

Fansa chewing out Batfinger continues the rape=empowerment narrative D&D seem so invested in. She did manage to voice one of the recurrent points from this thread concerning the moron's “plan”, but acknowledging the idiocy doesn't legitimise it, let alone the fact that she actively agreed to it at the time because revenge. 

I don't think the writers bothered to think of a real reason for Fansa to lie to Emo Jon, I'm not going to try and honeypot it for them. I was incredulous that it was brought up in the first place, was Weisseroff twitter having server issues that day? Fansa travelling to Mole's town in the first place seems like something Jon would've protested, it's a good thing she somehow intuits that Ramsay-sue hasn't bothered to make a move yet.

The Northern Lords are such a transparent plot-device that it's no wonder we couldn't see them throughout season 5. You can't create meaningful drama when you asspull everything all of the time, it doesn't work and this should be obvious even to mediocre writers. 

Hopefully I'm imagining this, but it feels like D&D have started shipping Emo Jon with Fansa. Do not want.

One bit of timeline spaghetti fun, Batfinger travelled from the Eyrie to the Winterfell, back to Carol's Landing, back to the Eyrie, raised a host, brought it to the North, then headed on to Mole's town – all before the Tyrell's responded to the Faith imprisoning Queen Margery and Loras, heir to their house. You can maybe dodge the 9 month+ Best!Walda situation in some parts of the story, but you can't fudge the parts where characters are crossing into other story-lines like that.

The situation in the Riverlands (Blackfish retaking Riverrun) seems like the sort of thing that would at least warrant a mention in Carol's Landing, but I guess they've already got their hands full listening to High Grandpa's incoherent lectures. The Tully's being able to commit forces to the North seems like a huge stretch (the Freys are presumably fighting them and the Crown forces should be as well), and unless I missed it the Boltons still hold Moat Cailin – though I guess they can just bypass it like Brute and presumably the Vale's forces have done.

 

The Salty Ones

The saltmoot was idiotic on every conceivable level. Once again kinslaying and kingslaying are the hot new thing in Weisseroff. Having the kingsmoot at all doesn't make sense with Theon present, just saying “It's the law”, isn't enough in a feudal setting. Not having a fixed line of succession, combined with complete acceptance of kinslaying and kingslaying would leave the Iron Islands in perceptual anarchy – they wouldn't be able to function as a group at all, much less be a serious threat to the outside world.

The only remotely redeeming thing about it was Alfie Allen's performance, but having him talk more than Yara is the opposite of empowering. She needed to make her own case; what we got instead was Balon sucked, we've always sucked, I'll take us in a bold new direction of doing pretty much the same thing. Also how did Euron even know that Theon had been castrated? Lucky guess?

Euron Two-eyes is pathetic in every way. There's zero charisma, his accent doesn't fit with anyone else, his appearance is as bland as possible, he's an imbecile who no-one with a modicum of sense would even consider following, and he didn't even have the decency to bring booty and a magic horn to help legitimise his insanity. With kinslaying being totally cool now, Yara should've just tossed an ax at the fool about half a second after he admitted he killed Balon.

The rather small number of assorted lords pretty much mindlessly agreed with whoever spoke last. Besides enshrined sexism there was no trace of politics or agendas at all – in a sequence that is explicitly political. 

Damphair has been stripped of any characterisation whatsoever. Well I guess you could argue he's implicitly “No homo, brah.” given that he doesn't like the touchy part of CPR, it's all good though as Two-eye can just resuscitate himself, why not?

I just had to laugh at Asha & Theon taking off with the entire fleet, as well as Two-eyes declaring that they chop down all their non-existent trees to make a thousand ships. Right there that should've destroyed any semblance of authority he had, but of course the born-mindless will obey and mass-produce that fleet in a couple of days.

 

Simplified Bay

Patient Zero continues to take immense pride in his valiant friend-zone status and manages to guilt Deadpan into almost emoting. Much like the Wildlings who apparently believe Emo Jon is a god now, the Dothraki act as one and remain respectfully quiet and off-screen.

Meanwhile St Tyrion's “plan” to have the slaver cities revert to slavery for 7 years, then apparently pay them off somehow (impressive financial planning given that Meereen is completely crippled and probably couldn't have afforded to do that even prior to Deadpan's occupation) apparently worked overnight.

Mel's stunt double showed up, mostly to freak out Varys by once again revisiting his only shred of backstory on the show, which naturally is his when he lost his junk; because until he became leader of St Tyrion's fanclub that was clearly his defining trait (now he has two! Such characterisation, much wow). Much like the Faceless Men the Red Priests appear to be selectively psychic, because why try?

 

Stick Fight Academy

MOAR STICK FIGHTING.

Followed by a scene that tries and fails to justify the cost of all those bespoke faces. Plus idle threats to kill A. Girl if she messes up again.

Bonus points for showing Wraif & Not!Jaqen at the same time, after weirdly implying they are the same person since the end of last season.

The play was almost a decent scene, it could've certainly been done better, but relative to the rest of the writing it actually held to together as a scene.

I sure am glad that one shot of a dick was there to counterbalance any and all claims of male gaze at play. I've clearly been very mistaken about how amazingly progressive the show is.

 

The Misadventures of Bran Stark

Man-child Bran fucked up everything for everyone because besides suffering what else are Starks good for? Well-groomed tree-man should probably have seen that coming.

We got another arbitrary death of a direwolf, Summer we hardly knew ye. As has become customary we don't even get a reaction from Bran to this. Ghost's unceremonious death seems inevitable at this point, Nymeria is probably safe thanks to being perpetually off-camera and forgotten (it's not like Arya can warg).

Is Frost Maul's posse the entirety of the Others? It seems like they've been sticking with the same four guys the whole time. They also managed to take an inordinately long time to get down that short corridor from the front door, guess it's a good thing the Children thought to install one in between seasons. Ditto on the service entrance round back.

Secret origin of the White Walkers revealed in seconds – I hope everyone is satisfied by this “efficient story-telling”.

Magic grenades. It's always jarring that in a show that strips out so much of the magical and mysterious from the books that we get elves blowing up Harryhausen skellingtons with fireballs.

Leaf? Pointlessly became a suicide bomber, in a situation where doing so made no sense at all.

We saw pretty much in real-time how long Hodor was able to act as a barricade, Meera can't possibly have dragged Man-child Bran any sort of meaningful distance. Also bear in mind that Frost Maul and the zombie horde were able to show up in no time at all after sensing Bran. Oh well plot armour to the rescue.

Paradoxes everywhere! Aside from the obvious stuff with Hodor, there's also the fact that Frost Maul detected Bran in the past. Bran is projecting from the present, but that was Frosty's past self, so he should've been aware of the cave's location long before the series even began (maybe he didn't want to create more paradoxes by killing Well-groomed tree-man before Bran was even born).

The show spent an enormous amount of time getting Bran to that cave for very little pay-off. Bran doesn't seem to have progressed as a character at all and the visions were basically pointless: we got a silly fight scene, the secret origin of Hodor and that the CotF were responsible for the White Walkers. The latter is something I suspected in the books, but hasn't been properly set up here (they never even bothered to make the Children & Bloodraven creepy), so it doesn't really feel like a pay-off and it just doesn't really seem like it matters. The inevitable reveal of Jon's parentage seems like it will be similar, in that it'll be a pay-off to a mystery that was never developed.

In the Outside the Episode they revealed that Well-groomed tree-man datadumped everything into Bran's head, so I guess flashbacks will continue. They utterly failed to convey that visually, I wonder how they'd cope without the Outside the Episode crutch.

Finally, there is never any good reason for them to state that GRRM told them something specific on the Outside the Episodes. It's hypocritical with their talk about how the show is it's own thing, it's inconsiderate and rude to fans who do not want to be spoiled on the books (the show will contain implied spoilers but that's very different to explicit information allegedly coming from George), and also I think they use those statements in very misleading ways. They beseeched book readers not to spoil the show for the unsullied, and the vast majority didn't which they even acknowledged, if they had any respect at all they would do the same.