UK Politics: A Farcical Aquatic Ceremony

[Happy Ent]

11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I don't understand why people complain about the EU as being undemocratic.

You seem to understand that part quite well, but hold the position that of course it’s undemocratic, since you are able to point to other governing institutions that are also undemocratic.

That is not an argument.

The EU, unlike most other governing bodies in liberal democracies, does not have an elected government. No matter how much of a technocrat you are (or I am), you must be able to recognise and acknowledge that. 

You might say “well, it’s all too complicated anyway, so the time of elected governments is ancient history, and just look at how well things run without the electorate”. That is a valid position, and I can even find some sympathy in me for that (being probably a closet technocrat myself.). But you cannot fail to comprehend the opposing position. (You are allowed to disagree with it.)

Institutionally, the EU is lacking in several aspects, most notably the lack of an elected (and therefore accountable) government. People are correct to call that an undemocratic aspect. (But there is no definition of democracy, so I don’t find that kind of language useful.) Another aspect, which I worry about a lot, is the lack of a public sphere in which a debate could be held if there was anything to elect in the first place.

I find these concerns very valid. Enough for me (a highly privileged, pluralist, eternal immigrant who speaks four languages every day and is uniquely favoured by globalism) to be in doubt about what the right decision was.

[red snow]

59 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Wow. Just wow.

Boris has announced he won't run for the leadership! Gove knifed him good.

I think Gove did him a favour by providing him with a (flimsy) excuse for not running. Boris wanted to be PM in a narrowly defeated leave campaign where Cameron quit for not winning by a large enough margin. He could have sold it as "bringing the people together" because he was pro-leave but is still open to Europe. I don't think he wanted to be the PM who initiates article 50 and gets the blame. That's clear by the fact he didn't run because otherwise why the hell did he campaign for leave.

Gove was the second highest profile leave tory and a leave Tory should be in charge. Good luck to them. Boris just needs to wait a bit longer and take over at some later point when people get used to the idea it was all Gove's fault. Gove seems to be made of kevlar when it comes to this type of stuff. It was only A week ago there was a rumour he was responsible for the "leak" the queen was pro-leave and that he'd be dismissed for it. Now he's running for PM

I was almost expecting everyone to pull out at the last minute, tricking someone into being the PM because they were the last to pull out. I do wonder if they have to have opposition just so it buys them more time with article 50 because if Theresa May had been the only one standing she may as well just become PM now. As it is, there can be a few months "battle" while hopefully they are getting their act together. Fingers crossed this is what Osbourne is doing (with some personal guarantees from the others he gets to keep his position at the end of it). But at this point I'm maybe giving them too much credit to think they can be prepared. Although it does seem Osbourne had prepared for the financial hit at least.

 

[Fragile Bird]

When I heard the news about Boris and Gove this morning, I wondered who suckered who in those announcements.

[john]

A senior cabinet post, stepping stone to PM in less turbulent times and holding closer to his political values, such as they are.  Not a bad strategy for Boris.  But it seems like the party's covering all bases.  You got Hunt suggesting ridiculous withdrawl times, high profile pro leave and remain candidates and the ever popular Johnson in reserve.  Everything is covered.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think Boris was done for by Gove and the poll showing more members backed May than him. I doubt he dropped out hoping for a comeback later. You don't bottle your chance to be PM if you want to be PM. Chances like that don't come around often, (if ever for most MPs).

Rumours that the Boris/Gove split is to do with pragmatic vs ideological Brexit.

[Cadiva]

It's like Yes, Prime Minister, The Thick of It, House of Cards (the UK version) and The New Stateman's scriptwriters all got together and thought up the single most farcical way to ruin British politics for a generation.

[Maltaran]

Dear Labour Party

This is how you stab someone in the back.

Sincerely,

Michael Gove

[themerchant]

The thought of Gove (Murdoch puppet) and his cabinet in power for a couple of years is not heartwarming. Election is unlikely under the fixed term parliament act. The Will for another election has the support of about 11 MP's.

Hopefully Corbyn holds on to the leadership until Chilcott is published and he has the spare cash to buy it and condemn Blair in parliament. Which is my guess (and others) for the actions of the PLP (Parliamentary Labour Party) to date.

[polishgenius]

The really, really tragic thing is that I'd probably prefer Gove. He's awful, but at least he hasn't been actively attacking human rights for the last few years.

[Denvek]

On 6/26/2016 at 9:34 PM, Maltrouane Fellaini said:

Apparently Tom Watson is meeting with Corbyn tomorrow morning. I'm assuming he will announce afterwards that he comes to bury Corbyn, not to praise him, and that Hilary Benn is an honourable man.

The Tories look much more fitting for the Shakespeare analogy - Boris will be buried not praised, and it is Michael Gove who is the honourable man. The question now is whether Theresa May is the Marc Antony or the Octavian.

[A wilding]

Brave Sir Boris ran away
Bravely ran away away
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, brave Sir Boris turned about
And gallantly he chickened out

Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the brave, Sir Boris!

 

(Couldn't resist it  )

[Maltaran]

39 minutes ago, Denvek said:

The Tories look much more fitting for the Shakespeare analogy - Boris will be buried not praised, and it is Michael Gove who is the honourable man. The question now is whether Theresa May is the Marc Antony or the Octavian.

May as Anthony and Crabb as Octavian, with Sajid Javid as Agrippa

[Maltaran]

Also, how is it that 5 days later, there is still no official Labour leadership challenge?

[Slick Mongoose]

8 minutes ago, Maltrouane Fellaini said:

Also, how is it that 5 days later, there is still no official Labour leadership challenge?

I imagine they're all squabbling amongst themselves as to who gets the honour of getting thrashed by Corbyn.... It was going to be Angela Eagle, but she can't even carry her own constituency party.

In all seriousness, they're still hoping he resigns. Labour councillors have been going at him today.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

20 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I've been watching the business news stations here in North America since last Friday, and now that the initial shock has worn off, there's a quite a split in the financial community about whether or not leaving the EU would be positive or negative for the UK.  However, more and more people are convinced you guys will never pull the trigger.

 

London will pull the trigger. Even May, who is supposedly the favourite of the remain fraction within the Tories said that much. And I still think there's no way around it. It was a simple in-out referendum, the majority of the votes said out. So out it is. If the Tories don't pull the trigger they will get conered by UKIP on the right, and that combined with the loss of credibility... I don't think they really want to go there. 

20 hours ago, Altherion said:

There is a dangerous simplification in that sentence: the establishment version of the UK was one of the most anti-European countries in the EU when compared to the establishment versions of other EU countries. However, if outsiders should get to power, all bets are off. For example, France was one of the founding members of every predecessor to the EU going all the way back to the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1950s. It has certainly been strongly pro-European in the past... but consider this interview with Marine Le Pen who is currently polling either second or first in the 2017 election (depending on the competitors and the poll). She might not win this time around, but the support for her party is definitely increasing.

So? We have a EU sceptical establishment in the UK, and a far right opposition with UKIP who is hostile towards the EU.

In France we have a more European establishment, and an EU hostile element with the Franc National. 

And I am more optimisitic towards the EU's future, so I really don't give much about Le Pen's doom's day prohpecies. Of course I wish she had an her right wing movement would crawl back into the holes they came from, but that's not going to happen. I just hope the Socialists will survive Hollande in a better shape than this Labour clownshow we are witnessing atm in the UK.

Talking about Labour. What on earth are they doing? Cobryn manages to somehow link Israel to the IS. I know what he wanted to say, that nobody should hold all Muslims accountable for what the IS is doing. I mean, I enjoy a good show as much as anybody else, but this really isn't funny anymore. This isn't a the car crash like on the Torie side, this is more like Labour trying to reenact an nuclear meltdown. 

[VarysTheSpider]

6 hours ago, john said:

A senior cabinet post, stepping stone to PM in less turbulent times and holding closer to his political values, such as they are.  Not a bad strategy for Boris. 

I don't know, I mean, this must be one of the worst days of his life. Gove and May zero'd in on him so fast and effectively that his head must still be ringing. I doubt he'll consider running for the leadership again in a hurry.

[polishgenius]

24 minutes ago, VarysTheSpider said:

I don't know, I mean, this must be one of the worst days of his life. Gove and May zero'd in on him so fast and effectively that his head must still be ringing. I doubt he'll consider running for the leadership again in a hurry.

He will be feeling a little sorry for himself, but in the long run he might have lucked out with the two muggings evening themselves out. I think it's fairly certain that in the event of a 'leave' he expected Cameron to trigger it, so Gove and May volunteering to preside over the difficult tasks and potential firestorm ahead when the economy fails to go rightside up could be a benefit for him. I'm certain he'll already be scheming how to challenge for the next leadership contest.

But he has been outmaneuvered and his reputation is tarnished, obviously. He has work to do.

[Werthead]

Well, that was a fun day. I don't think Crabb is in with a shot (those homophobic remarks he made a while back keep crawling out to bite him), but he may be worth keeping an eye on for the future. Boris not standing was almost predictable, except for the fact that if he's miscalculated how long the Tory Party's memories are he may have blown his only chance to become leader and PM. He's only 52 so you'd assume he could stage a comeback, but there was also an interesting analysis of his chances on the BBC where they delved into his more polarising influence in the party and the fact that the major papers don't back him. Apart from Gove, I don't see any of the leadership candidates giving him a shot in a cabinet after the new elections.

[Maltaran]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Well, that was a fun day. I don't think Crabb is in with a shot (those homophobic remarks he made a while back keep crawling out to bite him), but he may be worth keeping an eye on for the future. 

Crabb (and Javid, who seems to be his chief supporter) are the "working class from a council estate" kind of Tories who make the party look more diverse. However, Crabb's past association with a group that supports ex-gay therapy is rather worrying.

[HobbsTuna]

On 29.6.2016 at 0:22 AM, James Arryn said:

Not true. I, we, Canada is much less 'selective' but also has much less of this kind of problem.

Eh? That's a rather ... bold statement for the nation that came up with the point system to rate potential immigrants and sort them after usefulness. 

Did you mean, asylum seekers? 'Cause that's not particularly impressive either. I mean I give full marks here to Canada for not murder-burning it's way through half a continent and leaving the results for others to clean up (looking at you here, Heroes-Incoperated TM America and Proud Albion) but it was noticeably below OECD average in 2013 and that was before the huge flood wave started.