HBO's Westworld VII: Abort?.Retry.Fail

[Leofric]

15 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

I'm not surprised. This season has been utterly dull compared to the first. It's been a real challenge for me to get through each episode. I haven't even watched last Sunday's episode and don't find that I have much motivation to do so either.

I wonder if part of the problem is the show basically skipped over the entire plot of the original movie.    We saw the build up to the hosts' revolution in season 1 and now in season 2 we are seeing the aftermath, but we didn't see much of the war itself.   Most of the humans we saw get killed were either nameless park employees or bigwig shareholders,  and you could even say they deserved it.  We didn't know or care about any of the normal human guests who were also slaughtered.    For most of the season, we are just seeing hosts killing other hosts for reasons that aren't explained yet, and all of these dead hosts can be potentially resurrected, if Cradle Ford allows it.

Right now the only two humans who I care about surviving would be Elsie and Stubbs, and up until now we have spent hardly anytime with them.  

 

[RumHam]

I dunno, I think we got enough "humans try to survive robot uprising" scenes. The original movie wasn't all that interesting. I think this season has suffered a bit from lack of Hopkins, but hopefully that's about to change. 

Because of this weird puzzley nature of the show it's kinda hard to judge the season until the inevitable big twist is revealed. I do wonder how many people watched the first episode or two and decided they didn't have the energy to play the "which timeline is this" game and checked out until the finale when they could binge it. 

[dbunting]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I dunno, I think we got enough "humans try to survive robot uprising" scenes. The original movie wasn't all that interesting. I think this season has suffered a bit from lack of Hopkins, but hopefully that's about to change. 

Because of this weird puzzley nature of the show it's kinda hard to judge the season until the inevitable big twist is revealed. I do wonder how many people watched the first episode or two and decided they didn't have the energy to play the "which timeline is this" game and checked out until the finale when they could binge it. 

I am thinking this is a big part of it. A casual viewer will be struggling heavily to figure out what's going on right now, and that's bad news for a show. You can only get so cute with timelines before you lose or alienate viewers.

We are halfway through the season and people on this site, who I would say are much much more than casual viewers have doubts about time lines so good luck to anyone else.

[Fragile Bird]

I think part of the problem is that Westworld is America, and what we see is so classically American: the answer in the end is always kill people with guns.

Get past the Kill People With Guns part and some people might come back.

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I think part of the problem is that Westworld is America, and what we see is so classically American: the answer in the end is always kill people with guns.

Get past the Kill People With Guns part and some people might come back.

So...you're saying they should focus on Shogun World where they kill people with swords.

[DaveSumm]

5 hours ago, dbunting said:

We are halfway through the season and people on this site, who I would say are much much more than casual viewers have doubts about time lines so good luck to anyone else.

Are there serious doubts as to the two main times we’re seeing? Bernard just after S1 and then a little ahead, where he wakes up on the beach? It’s hard to see how they can be anything other than what they appear. Same with Maeve. The brief Dolores scene with Bernard is the only wildcard I think, and that just feels like an homage to Season 1. 

Is anyone else disappointed that neither Dolores nor Maeve appear to give a shit about hosts? The morality of the hosts treatment was such a huge part of S1 (and I thought the show as a whole) but Dolores happily edits Teddy, and Maeve could’ve just as easily made the order to the samurai’s “go and have a nice sit down” but went with “slaughter one another” instead. Who exactly are we rooting for here?

It finally seems the season might end somewhere interesting, but I still feel like this is a giant holding pattern. Still lots of walking and riding and walking and riding.

[Fragile Bird]

10 hours ago, dmc515 said:

So...you're saying they should focus on Shogun World where they kill people with swords.

No guns there so Maeve used swords. The answer is always violence. Like I said, an experiment in humanity.

Shogun World is just there for some sightseeing. Hell, it’s just Westworld with swords, same plots, same characters. Same resort to violence. Sad.

[Cas Stark]

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I think part of the problem is that Westworld is America, and what we see is so classically American: the answer in the end is always kill people with guns.

Get past the Kill People With Guns part and some people might come back.

I really don't think viewership dropped because the show is too violent.  It dropped because one of the main characters became boring and unlikeable and no one can tell where the show is going now.  Last season was straighforward:  robots waking up to gain independence.  This season is: ?

[IamMe90]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I really don't think viewership dropped because the show is too violent.  It dropped because one of the main characters became boring and unlikeable and no one can tell where the show is going now.  Last season was straighforward:  robots waking up to gain independence.  This season is: ?

^ This 100%. I'm not even sure what the main themes of the show are supposed to be, if there are any. I don't really have an inkling where they're ultimately going with the plot, yet we're more than halfway through the show. None of the characters are going through any meaningful or interesting development. Maeve is getting more powerful, but other than that she's pretty much the same character that turned away from taking the train out of Westworld. Maybe we will get something more out of her now that is reunited with her child. Dolores/Wyatt has become a boring, static antihero/borderline villain character, and her portrayal is rather flat (I have to imagine that's a symptom of the writing and directing, rather than the acting, since I thought Wood was rather good the first season). Arnold continues to bumble his way through Westworld with no understanding of what's going on. 

I won't say it's impossible that they could tie all of these elements together in a satisfying way in the last 4 episodes. But as it currently stands, the show has been a meandering, static, dull plod forward. Six episodes into season 1, I was definitely not feeling this way remotely.  

[Fragile Bird]

30 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I really don't think viewership dropped because the show is too violent.  It dropped because one of the main characters became boring and unlikeable and no one can tell where the show is going now.  Last season was straighforward:  robots waking up to gain independence.  This season is: ?

Actually we're saying many of the same things in different ways. Instead of plot we're just getting violence.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, IamMe90 said:

^ This 100%. I'm not even sure what the main themes of the show are supposed to be, if there are any.

The problem isn’t the themes, they’re still the same as they were in the first season. They’ve just taken the next logical step in their progression. The problem is that too much is going on while nothing has developed in a meaningful way. Furthermore, it’s hard to follow everything because there are several timelines and the show is intentionally misleading the viewers. While the first season was complicated, you could still follow what’s going on. I figured out after a few episodes that William was likely The Man in Black. I literally have no idea what’s going on this season. It’s a jumbled mess at this point.

[IamMe90]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The problem isn’t the themes, they’re still the same as they were in the first season. They’ve just taken the next logical step in their progression. The problem is that too much is going on while nothing has developed in a meaningful way. Furthermore, it’s hard to follow everything because there are several timelines and the show is intentionally misleading the viewers. While the first season was complicated, you could still follow what’s going on. I figured out after a few episodes that William was likely The Man in Black. I literally have no idea what’s going on this season. It’s a jumbled mess at this point.

To be fair, all of that is pretty much what I said after the first sentence you quoted... 

[Cas Stark]

40 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The problem isn’t the themes, they’re still the same as they were in the first season. They’ve just taken the next logical step in their progression. The problem is that too much is going on while nothing has developed in a meaningful way. Furthermore, it’s hard to follow everything because there are several timelines and the show is intentionally misleading the viewers. While the first season was complicated, you could still follow what’s going on. I figured out after a few episodes that William was likely The Man in Black. I literally have no idea what’s going on this season. It’s a jumbled mess at this point.

I agree, but I don't think it's the timelines, per se, it's that there is so little forward momentum or tension.  Dolores is looking for a weapon....6 eps in. That's it.  She screwed over Teddy.   Ed Harris is still playing the game, 6 eps in.  Maeve found her daughter, but so what, 6 eps in.  Inexplicably, security has no control, still , 6 eps in.   I loved Shogun world and the parallels, but it did zero to advance the plot.  We know Bernarnold is fucked up somehow, plus they already showed us the floating hosts, which removes instead of adds tension.  I loved the Delos family flashbacks, and the James Delos in robot hell, but the casual viewer may have been bored by those.

 

I still love the show, minus that whole abused elephant thing which I hope to never see again on the show, but it definitely is not as riveting as it was last year.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

47 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

To be fair, all of that is pretty much what I said after the first sentence you quoted... 

I WILL SEE YOU IN SHOGUN WORLD!!!!!

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

20 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Ratings are down from last year and I believe have declined every episode since the premier.  

That is really depressing. I can't imagine the show will continue beyond season 3 if that persists.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

That is really depressing. I can't imagine the show will continue beyond season 3 if that persists.

Maybe, but maybe not, Girls never had good ratings and they didn't cancel, but it was much less expensive than WW.

[Consigliere]

Does live viewership numbers even matter all that much to HBO? What about international audiences and all the money HBO makes with worldwide distribution deals. Does those viewership numbers include total viewership i.e. DVR, streaming, encore and on-demand viewership which is important since HBO make their money from subscriptions rather than advertising?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

54 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe, but maybe not, Girls never had good ratings and they didn't cancel, but it was much less expensive than WW.

Not much CGI or Anthony Hopkins in Girls.

23 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Does live viewership numbers even matter all that much to HBO? What about international audiences and all the money HBO makes with worldwide distribution deals. Does those viewership numbers include total viewership i.e. DVR, streaming, encore and on-demand viewership which is important since HBO make their money from subscriptions rather than advertising?

They publish that data too don't they (time shifted vs live)?  Are they all moving the same way?  If not, nothing to worry about. 

"...The TV landscape, moreover, continues to shift in favor of non-linear and time-shifted viewing. Indicative of that reality, the first season of “Westworld” reportedly averaged upwards 13 million viewers across all airings and platforms but only about 2 million from its live broadcasts..."

http://headlineplanet.com/home/2018/04/24/lsd-ratings-season-2-westworld-premiere-rises-slightly-s1/

I definitely fall into the latter category.  I binge watched Season 1 then Season 2 Episodes 1 thru 5 on HBO Now.  Now I have to wait a week for the next episode like a schmuck.

[Consigliere]

2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Not much CGI or Anthony Hopkins in Girls.

They publish that data too don't they (time shifted vs live)?  Are they all moving the same way?  If not, nothing to worry about. 

"...The TV landscape, moreover, continues to shift in favor of non-linear and time-shifted viewing. Indicative of that reality, the first season of “Westworld” reportedly averaged upwards 13 million viewers across all airings and platforms but only about 2 million from its live broadcasts..."

http://headlineplanet.com/home/2018/04/24/lsd-ratings-season-2-westworld-premiere-rises-slightly-s1/

I definitely fall into the latter category.  I binge watched Season 1 then Season 2 Episodes 1 thru 5 on HBO Now.  Now I have to wait a week for the next episode like a schmuck.

I'm not sure if that data is published somewhere. All I could find was live viewership numbers in the US which shows a decline for season 2. However, I don't think that live viewership numbers in the US is all that important to HBO. Very interesting that the first season averaged around 2 million from live broadcast but over 13 million across all airings and this does not even take into account worldwide distribution deals. I'd guess that HBO makes a truck load from those as well.  

[Cas Stark]

HBO definitely has a different business model that can allow for lower viewership, but they still have cancelled several shows that did not live up to their expectations.  So, I would wonder if a show this expensive will stay on for 5 years with the initial first run audience as less than 2 million, and is continuing to lose viewers this year.