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Son of Man

Poll: The Southron Ambitions

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In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

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I think he is just like any other Lord out there, he was just trying to improve the station of his House. I don't even know why they call them Southern ambitions really, we know that Rickard Karstark was swanning Alys around Robb when they where younger, and I have no doubt other Northern Lords where trying to get a marriage between Robb and their daughters. 

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3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

No. But come October more might be revealed via the companion material.

Rickard had betrothed his daughter to Robert. Was the tourney at Harrenhall a guise to undermine the Targ rule? I dunna know.

All I know is that through a series of events Lyanna, the daughter of Rickard and the betrothed of Robert went missing and Lyanna's brother & companions rode to KL. Thereby setting off a series of event's that came to be known as Robert's Rebellion.

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5 hours ago, Son of Man said:

In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

The southron ambitions had nothing to do with taking down the Targaryens . Hoster Tully wanted allies to help the Riverlands in case of invasion , Jon Arryn wanted a son while Rickard Stark to join the north to the rest of the kingdom .

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We don’t have any reason why he would. Ned turned down the throne. Sansa was more than happy to not have it as it came with Joff. Robb didn’t care about it. Rickard as a stand out who cared about it when none before or after cared doesn’t work if there’s no good reason.

 

A lot of major families were intermarrying with each other rather than their bannermen:

Jaime Lannister / Lysa Tully

Jon Arryn / Lysa Tully

Robert Baratheon / Lyanna Stark

Robert Baratheon / Cersei Lannister

Brandon Stark / Catelyn Tully

 

Looks to me like the Lannisters, Tullys, Arryns, Starks and Baratheons may have been nervous about Aerys (and Rhaegar’s not doing anything about it) and were consolidating power by intermarrying instead of marrying their own bannermen. Basically more like a check on powers should Aerys get out of hand rather than anyone trying to take him over. The Targs held the throne for so long because they were smart enough to more or less leave the kingdoms alone, even leaving it in their title that they rule seven kingdoms. That is, until Aerys. Though Tywin may have had an eye on the throne.

That they got the throne and no one even wanted it forcing Robert to take it indicates that there were no plans to take it over.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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Yes and No....and by that I mean I do believe he intended to create a United political/milatary  power block in the North Eastern part of Westeros in attempt to check the United power of the Royal and Southern Houses(Targs were married to Dorne in current generation. In the reach the Tyrells owed them their station, and before the rebellion I don't think they were crazy to count on the Highttowers help).

But I don't think his initial plan was open rebellion...I fact in think that it is quite possible that the situation is much more complicated than it appears on the surface, for example if there really was a known rift between Aerys and Raegar, I could see that greatly complicating things as the lords scramble to reposition themselves on either side of this conflict, add that to the ultimate X factor, Tywin Lannister, who, one the surface appears to be brooding in Casterly Rock and not a part of any of this political intrigue.

Yea, something doesn't add up to me

Edited by Back door hodor

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On 9/22/2018 at 5:11 PM, Son of Man said:

In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

Yes

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No.

He agreed to wed his son and heir to the daughter of a lord who was trying to wed his other daughter to the heir of Aerys's Hand, who himself was still trying to wed his own daughter to one of Aerys's sons.

He agreed to wed his daughter to the son of one of Aerys's oldest and most trusted friends, and cousin, who Aerys had named to his Small Council, entrusted with finding a bride for his son and heir, and apparently intended to name Hand before his death.

Rickard was trying to increase his ties in the south, and increase his influence in the south, especially with House Targaryen. He was trying to get closer to the Targaryens, not fight them.

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No.

He agreed to wed his son and heir to the daughter of a lord who was trying to wed his other daughter to the heir of Aerys's Hand, who himself was still trying to wed his own daughter to one of Aerys's sons.

He agreed to wed his daughter to the son of one of Aerys's oldest and most trusted friends, and cousin, who Aerys had named to his Small Council, entrusted with finding a bride for his son and heir, and apparently intended to name Hand before his death.

Rickard was trying to increase his ties in the south, and increase his influence in the south, especially with House Targaryen. He was trying to get closer to the Targaryens, not fight them.

I find that point to be the most likely issue here more than anything. 

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:11 PM, Son of Man said:

In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

They were trying to create a power bloc that could oppose the Iron Throne and its principal backer, Highgarden.

If you look at history, Highgarden has been the hegemon in the region for thousands of years -- first under the Gardeners, then the Tyrells -- capable of fielding an army that dwarfs any single realm. The key to their power is the tight bonds between Gardener/Tyrell, Hightower and Redwyne -- bonds which have been reinforced over the years through marriage. They are all one big extended family. The only time Highgarden has fallen is when poor marriage alliances on the part of the Gardener king led to dissension within the realm, which led to a combined assault of westermen, stormlanders and Dornish.

So by arranging marriages between the north, riverlands, stormlands and/or vale and westerlands, the lords were building the foundation for a grand alliance that could counter both the Iron Throne and Highgarden. It would take a few more generations of intermarriages to complete the bloc, but you have to start somewhere. This, of course, would be deeply troubling to both the king and the Tyrells, which is why they tried to thwart it, first by kidnapping Lyanna then calling for the heads of the next generation of lords (Ned and Robert), and ultimately by calling the banners.

This is also the reason why the Tyrells today are just as concerned about Tywin's attempt to create a similar bloc through both marriage and conquest. At the time of his death, he controlled the westerlands, the riverlands, the crownlands, the stormlands and, soon, the north. And this, of course, was why Tyrion was the target at the Purple Wedding, not Joffrey -- to prevent him from father a son on Sansa who would then bring the north under Lannister control.

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Yes.

Very quick summary of case in favour of Rickard conspiring to overthrow Targaryens and replace them with a Stark-Baratheon dynasty, with Lyanna as Queen.

1. Synthesises Marwyn's Citadel revelation with Barbery Dustin view maesters were behind the southron schemes. We can ask, why would maesters have a view about Rickard's marriage alliances and we can take the goals of the Citadel as the reason. 

2. Woiaf has a little note about misguided men saying Rickard brought the near annihilation upon himself. best explanation for this is that some northern nobles knew he had been plotting to overthrow the king and that's why his fate was viewed as self-caused - on the official version of events thinking Rickard was responsible for a Mad King's madness makes little sense.

3. Makes sense of Rhaegar's out-of-character dutiful behaviour wrt Lyanna elopement. A dutiful prince would not act purely out of passion/prophecy with no regard to welfare of the dynasty. If Rickard wanted Lyanna as the Queen of a new Stark-Baratheon dynasty grabbing her kicked the struts out from Rickard's plans. 

4. Draws together dynastic struggle plotline and return of magic plotline, War against Targaryen dynasty fits into overall story of demise and return of magic to the world. 

Edited by Chaircat Meow

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No. Most likely he just wanted to intergrate his family with the politics and trade of the south by gaining some influence at court and in the other major houses. At worst, he, Tywin, Hoster and Jon were creating a power block to try and keep Aerys in check should he ever start threatening to go too far. In the end, he did go too far and said power block (minus Tywin) rose up in rebellion and overthrew him.

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On 9/22/2018 at 5:11 PM, Canon Claude said:

No. He just had a father’s ambition to wed his children well. Barbrey is a bitter jealous woman making mountains out of molehills.

exactly. one line does not a conspiracy make 

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1 hour ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Yes.

Very quick summary of case in favour of Rickard conspiring to overthrow Targaryens and replace them with a Stark-Baratheon dynasty, with Lyanna as Queen.

1. Synthesises Marwyn's Citadel revelation with Barbery Dustin view maesters were behind the southron schemes. We can ask, why would maesters have a view about Rickard's marriage alliances and we can take the goals of the Citadel as the reason. 

2. Woiaf has a little note about misguided men saying Rickard brought the near annihilation upon himself. best explanation for this is that some northern nobles knew he had been plotting to overthrow the king and that's why his fate was viewed as self-caused - on the official version of events thinking Rickard was responsible for a Mad King's madness makes little sense.

3. Makes sense of Rhaegar's out-of-character dutiful behaviour wrt Lyanna elopement. A dutiful prince would not act purely out of passion/prophecy with no regard to welfare of the dynasty. If Rickard wanted Lyanna as the Queen of a new Stark-Baratheon dynasty grabbing her kicked the struts out from Rickard's plans. 

4. Draws together dynastic struggle plotline and return of magic plotline, War against Targaryen dynasty fits into overall story of demise and return of magic to the world. 

I agree.  For one thing, everybody knew what would happen if Rickard succeeded in building his coalition.  He would be able to challenge Aerys.  Everybody knows a king could never allow one of his vassals to become more powerful than he is.  War was coming unless Rickard gave up on his plans.  

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On 9/22/2018 at 5:11 PM, Son of Man said:

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

Rickard was plotting to remove the Targaryens from the throne.  So yes.  

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On 9/22/2018 at 2:11 PM, Son of Man said:

In A Dance With Dragons, we are told by Lady Barbrey Dustin of a conspiracy between Rickard Stark and the other lords.  I want to know what my fellow book fans believe.

 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting to take down the Targaryen Dynasty?

 

yes

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On 9/23/2018 at 3:11 AM, Canon Claude said:

No. He just had a father’s ambition to wed his children well. Barbrey is a bitter jealous woman making mountains out of molehills.

This. A whole conspiracy theory based on Barbrey Dustin's blabbering, a petty woman with who knows what kind of intentions.

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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