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Rant & Rave without Repercussion: Burn It All Edition

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4 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

I kind of hope Cersei is alive. It could be they have Jaime parallel The Mountain and he somehow kept her safe from tons of falling debris.

Just to have her throat slit by Arya? Would be lame. What they should have done is have the dragonfire light up a load of wildfire in the crypts. If wildfire had caught up and burned up Cercei, that would have been poetic.

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18 minutes ago, The Prince of Porne said:

can someone explain to me why she shouldn't have taken King's Landing a season and a half ago, when she still had three dragons and the Night King was still trying to figure out how to get through the Wall?

Exactly.

I think they will claim Tyrion and to some extent Jon (when she asks him after they come out of the cave) told her that she would become just another invader of she burned down cities and castles. But really, it looks like you only need to take out Maegor's holdfast with Cersei inside and that's it, game over. 

8 year olds can write better.

The writing since S5 is just UNBELIEVABLY BAD.

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Just to have her throat slit by Arya? Would be lame. What they should have done is have the dragonfire light up a load of wildfire in the crypts. If wildfire had caught up and burned up Cercei, that would have been poetic.

Nah, if she does survive I imagine her being executed by Daenerys in some awful way. I mean as far as pushing the plot along  it would be pointless. It's not like they can portray Daenerys as any worse after this, but who knows.

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It's one thing to be disappointed by bad writing - this one has left me in shock.

Think of it, what is the message?

That it is right to be prejudiced about someone based on where they come from? (And apparently the gods don't even flip a coin anymore when a Targaryen is born - they just all go mad!) Everyone who wanted to kill Dany just for being a Targaryen was right in the end??? It is right to judge children for the crimes their fathers committed ere they repeat them?

This is a very wrong message and not something I would have expected as the bottom line of a fantasy epos. This is indeed something I did not see coming. I can only hope this was not thought through, just done for cheap effect and hyperbolic sensationalism, not something someone coming from the culture of fantasy and roleplaying wants me to believe is the bottom line.

It is dramaturgically right to keep the option open, to make madness a threat and a challenge for Dany to face, but it should never have been the simplified outcome. A *very* good writer can perhaps even create an ending where she loses it, but it is made clear it's not just being Targaryen that makes her go down this road.

This... I just wish I'd never consumed this. 

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6 hours ago, Rockroi said:

  Doesn’t matter; Dany burned it anyway. 

 

I'm only quoting one line from an epic post by Rockroi, on page 1.

Go back and read it all, every word. It's well worth it.

Bravo Ser!

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2 minutes ago, Hedgehog1977 said:

It's one thing to be disappointed by bad writing - this one has left me in shock.

Think of it, what is the message?

That it is right to be prejudiced about someone based on where they come from? (And apparently the gods don't even flip a coin anymore when a Targaryen is born - they just all go mad!) Everyone who wanted to kill Dany just for being a Targaryen was right in the end??? It is right to judge children for the crimes their fathers committed ere they repeat them?

This is a very wrong message and not something I would have expected as the bottom line of a fantasy epos. This is indeed something I did not see coming. I can only hope this was not thought through, just done for cheap effect and hyperbolic sensationalism, not something someone coming from the culture of fantasy and roleplaying wants me to believe is the bottom line.

It is dramaturgically right to keep the option open, to make madness a threat and a challenge for Dany to face, but it should never have been the simplified outcome. A *very* good writer can perhaps even create an ending where she loses it, but it is made clear it's not just being Targaryen that makes her go down this road.

This... I just wish I'd never consumed this. 

The show also now says you are what your parents are. Except for Tyrion I guess? 

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8 hours ago, Rockroi said:

Or maybe when one guy waits too long to finish his books, two fucking morons will rise up and ruin what he started. 

Because in the end, it doesn’t even matter…

Very well said. I skipped the previous 3 seasons and tuned in just to see how this tragic misuse of amazing source material ends. And good lord, it's so much worse than even i thought possible. 

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4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

I will say though, that Arya's dust covered, blood-caked blood is going to be a huge cosplay / halloween favorite. That makeup was kind of amazing.

Reminded me a lot of Lady Stoneheart

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22 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

IMHO this is not how art should work.  When somebody tells a story they have to lay the foundation FIRST so that there is no need for an explanation SECOND.  This is why the show is bad -- because good fans like you have to go to the altar of D&D and BEG them for an explanation for their inane babbling.  Other fans will parse through interviews and read quotes and watch "behind the scenes" footage to try to glean some knowledge of what they just watched.  

And that's how far we have fallen; we no longer rely on the story to tell us what's going on; we need the story-tellers to explain to us "Yeah, what the fuck did I just watch?"  That's putrid story-telling.  When the movie ends, the director does not walk up to the front of the theater and say, "See, the reason X did this was because of the relationship she had with ... and hopefully that will make sense of this..."  

That's not how you tell a story; that's how you excuse mistakes.  

I must say, there are very few tv shows and movies that I find interesting enough to watch because very few surprise me. Most popular fiction, especially that which comes from Hollywood, follows specific formulas so closely that its not interesting to me unless there are mysteries, complicated characters, good acting or good special affects or something to give it flavor. Even though GOT follows formulas, they also bend them a little or they succeed in suspending our expectations enough to get into it. So I like it for that reason. There are other series that I think are well done but they just don't hold my attention. I give up on some shows that violate too many rules too so going against formula isn't necessarily a good thing either. I like GOT because it alters the fantasy formula enough to update it, but still adheres to it enough to keep traditionalist pleased or at least still watching.

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At this point Benihof and Weiss are either excessivly using really bad drugs or they need to strart taking some good ones. The series has devolved from a complex character driven storyline into little more than a Michael Bay movie. Let me guess...next week drogon sides with jon settling the matter as to has the better claim...SHAME Beniwhoof and unWeiss SHAME!

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Posted (edited)

Bittersweet ending:

Bitter because it is absolute shite on almost every level.

Sweet because I finally feel justified in hating this show since season 5. For years we were the prophets of the endtimes, yet the fools refused to listen!

So yeah they nailed it.

Also the episode title being "The Bells" made me laugh out loud. They really think they did something clever, but those goddamn bells are nothing but prime meme material. Why? Why did the bells do that? What? WHAT?

Edit: I guess this explains why Tuco Salamanca was so crazy. Dude had to constantly listen to Hector's ding ding dings. Bells can drive you crazy, guys. We need a bell awareness month.

Edited by The Lord of Cinder

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I would kind of rather see GRRM give up the books and just come on here to tear the show writers apart at this point. That would be so much more entertaining and cathartic. 

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Posted (edited)

Just finished watching the episode. 

Epic and disappointing at the same time. But I don't think that they ruined Daenerys. She is used to be the winner since the Dothraki times. She feels like a queen and seeks for adoration. She thinks that Westeros is hers to take by any means. I never really liked this character. Oppressed by her brother she grew greedy for power cause without it she's just a little fragile girl. We already saw how crazy she is about burning everyone who is against her. 

How she burned Tarlys and now Varys. I'm surprised that Jon and Tyrion followed her. SHE betrayed everyone not listening to the bells...

But soon her own child will turn against her. Drogon will listen to Jon.

Edited by Obsidian Knight

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I don’t think that Dany flipped a switch after hearing the surrender bells and went mad and started killing innocents in a rash, spur of the moment decision. Her mind was made up the moment that Cersei executed Missandei. She even said as much BEFORE the parley. She said if the negotiations didn’t go well, Cersei would be to blame. Dany had a plan. It was premeditated. She wanted to burn them all. It was a power move. She was done negotiating and playing politics. None of that worked. So, she used the only tools left in her bag, fire and blood. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry but I couldn't wait until I read all the posts before posting myself.

All throughout the episode I kept telling myself 'it is just for entertainment, don't read into this, don't analyse, just suspend your disbelief.'

But by the time the battle started I couldn't keep telling myself that.

When the balistas were missing due to Drogon's plot armour I couldn't keep telling myself that.

It was impossible to suspend my disbelief and just watch purely for entertainment. It's like watching wrestling after you know it's fake and can't watch it just as entertainment because you know what you are seeing is not real. The excitement is gone.

I am so warped by what I just viewed I can't even throw a logical rant together.

The one thing that I have to laugh about, that I have kept laughing about is this... Where I used to work a customer told me that she named her daughter Khalessi, you know so her daughter would be cool and all. She was so proud that she had done this.

Since season 8 started and the general public opinion of the show has waned I have kept wondering about that person and whether she will regret naming her daughter Khalessi.

Now after tonight I want to know if she is getting her daughter's name changed.

I'm not even disappointed anymore, I'm just deflated.

I'm glad I don't rate shows on IMDB until the series finishes, becuase what would have been an 8 (maybe 9) is now a 6. I can't believe people compare(d) this show to the Sopranos or the Wire.

More subversion of tropes, which in itself isn't bad but when it is done purely for shock or awesomeness value it just lacks the punch as when it is done for narrative purposes or to send a message.

I was a huge Lost fan, and this is just dredging up memories of what happened during the final season (as I was too blind to see until then). Dumb and Dumber will probably come out and say it's not about the intentions of the white walkers, or why the seasons are the way there are, Bran's abilities or the deep political machinations of Westeros (which we saw coherently for at least 4 seasons) but it was about the relationships the Starks had with the other great houses. I am just waiting for them to say that!

Fuck the mysteries, it was all about Dany's relationship with Westeros.

Some third rate excuse to alienate the hardcore fanbase.

All I know is the rewatchability of this show has dropped massively. The legacy of this show has dropped. And it's not even about what happened during this episode. This is just the pinnacle of all the crap I, along with the hardcore (detail observing) fanbase, have been forced to accept in the last few weeks.

So if you'll excuse me I'm going to read this thread, try to read all these posts before next week and find some leaks...

Rant done, thank you!

edit: Sorry I just have to add: the plus side is that this only makes me support Stannis' claim more!

Edited by RetconKillah

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Greenmonsterff said:

I don’t think that Dany flipped a switch after hearing the surrender bells and went mad and started killing innocents in a rash, spur of the moment decision. Her mind was made up the moment that Cersei executed Missandei. She even said as much BEFORE the parley. She said if the negotiations didn’t go well, Cersei would be to blame. Dany had a plan. It was premeditated. She wanted to burn them all. It was a power move. She was done negotiating and playing politics. None of that worked. So, she used the only tools left in her bag, fire and blood. 

You've hit the nail on the head.

This atrocity was deliberate and calculated. 

"Caedite eos.  Deus enim eius novit."

Edited by SeanF

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5 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Spot on.

We could have had the same plot with Dany going Fire & Blood on what she thinks are Lannister soldiers (who may even have surrendered, but she can't see that). The city could still be sacked by Dothraki and Northmen (they ain't angels you know, remember the Karstark men in the books ravaging in the Riverlands after their Lord was executed by Robb), because (sadly) this what happened in the middle ages, even by armies led by some relatively more popular historical figures (subsequent propaganda making sure their enemies sacks gained more notoriety than their own).

In this scenario - and you could have caches of wildfire being set off with much more effect than what we had - Dany would have at worst been  a Tywin, but not batshit. This can still allow whatever the plot is here to go ahead without completely ruining Dany - she's only doing what Olenna advised her at the start of last season. Yeah, she's no different from other rulers of the past, but that's the Game. This is exactly how Robert got his backside on the throne as well - after Tywin sacked KL for him.

We did not need the repeat strafings of the small folk. COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY.

Could have at least used some flashbacks or voice-overs to try to tell us what's going through the characters' minds. It's a well known technique, you know?

yep, it could have been done  a lot more skilfully, (cersei setting of wildfire and taking everyone with her - which would have been in character for her -  making it look like dany) but now we all hate dany, we will be ok when jon (or arya with jons face) kills her.  That is whats gonna kill it even more, arya killing jon to get to dany so she can get her green eyes...

and also jon refusing her - that is what sends her over the edge - FFS!

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3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I just can't agree with that. What was the point of having Dany worrying if she has "the taint" if she's actually going to succumb to it in the end?

I'm not sure what you mean?  Insanity is not something you prevent, and sometimes its a losing battle.

 

 

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As I said on the rating thread, I'm actually stunned by how bad that was.

At first, I was delighted by the absence of Sophie Turner from the opening credits.  However, the lack of Sandra Snark didn’t help in the long run.

What was Varys up to in the first scene?  Trying get whoever Martha was to poison Dany? :dunno:

I couldn’t really make head nor tail of that conversation between Dany and Tyrion.  Some of it made sense, some of it didn’t.  But my heart sank when Tyrion mentioned the bells.  So BellGate it is – the leaks are true.  I could weep.

The pinpoint accuracy of Varys’s execution made me snort with laughter.  Laser-beam dragonfire?

So, why does Jon say he loves her and then rebuffs her?  C’mon, Jonny, take one for the team.

“I’m Arya Stark.  I’m going to kill Queen Cersei.” Oh FFS, really?  Just throwing things out for the meme machines.

So Jaime is going back to be with Cersei after all?  He has no redemption arc – just a circle back to Larry.  Innocents mean nothing although they did once.  And Tyrion is still being yawningly saint-like and wanting to save Cersei.  Just why?  That still makes no sense - she sent Bronn to kill them both.  That said, I did find their goodbye very touching.  Just shades of who their characters once were.  I wish we’d had more of that. :bawl:

Then we get Euron’s Ironborn fleet and the Lannisters’ KL wall defences getting ready for the attack which they’ll surely easily repel based on the last episode’s easy kill of Rhaegal. 

Lots of wandering, running, marching, wandering, Cersei watching and smirking - wow, so dull. Director likes an aerial shot of crowds, but really, after Mhysa and Jon in BotB, I’m totally over this technique now.

Back to the fleet, Euron’s spidey sense tingles. Drogon appears and suddenly all the Scorpions miss and everyone becomes incompetent because Plot.  I’m torn between admiration for all the craft that’s gone into the creation and detailing of the scorpions and annoyance at the sheer waste of time and money as they’re now rendered useless by the contrivance of the plot.

Switching back to Dany’s armies and the Golden Company, it’s completely quiet even though we should be able to hear the bedlam in the distance – sounds like that travel.  

And then Drogon takes down the wall behind the GC, pretty much wiping them out.  Yeah, cool visual and all that, but so stupid.  So, the GC did absolutely nothing.  :commie:

Also, there seem to be a lot of Dothraki considering we were told they were extinct after ep 3. :dunno: And there goes Harry Strickland to Grey Worm’s armour-piercing javelin.  I can’t even …

Drogon does some strafing and back to Cersei watching – c’mon, there really should be more noise travelling to her.

And then this ridiculous dialogue:

Scorpions? Nah, all destroyed.

Iron fleet? Nah, burning.

Golden Company? Wall breached, so nope.

Lannister soldier, good and true, will defend their queen to the last man?  Red Keep’s never fallen (except when it did), won’t fall today.

Comedy gold.

 

Back to Dany's soldiers wandering through KL with occasional  sword swipes – oh and there are the Lannister soldiers, good n true … (Tyrion wills the bells to ring; Jaime wanders; Cersei stares; civilians run and get strafed). Drogon appears and the Lannister soldiers … give up to a man. Another aerial shot.  Come on!  So annoying.  

Back to Jaime wandering and picking up a sword.  Where is widow’s wail, I wonder.  Who’ll end up with it?

Then much staring of Cersei to Dany to Cersei to Dany to Tyrion to the bells – OH STOP IT!!

Finally, the bells ring and Dany loses it and carries on strafing.  Just why?  The city has surrendered and she knows that’s what the bells mean.  This just doesn’t make sense within its own context.  She agreed when Tyrion asked her not to continue if the bells rang.  If this is what they were going to do, this could have been built up so much better than this. 

So then all hell breaks loose with the Dothraki and Unsullied and the Northerners while Jon just … wanders?  Then he jumps in to save a woman from being raped and I didn’t think I could get more annoyed – but it seems I can.  Jon is just a bystander with an occasional nod to the man he used to be.

Euron appears in exactly where Jaime is and we subjected to this nonsense fight, intercut with Dany wrecking the Red Keep – which is kind of weird since that’s what’s housing the Iron Throne she’s been after for 8 seasons.  I have no interest in this Larry/Urine fight.  Nor in Cersei and Qyburn continuing their comedy conversation of Cersei being as dumb as a stump.

Jaime seems to have developed Arya’s imperviousness to stomach wounds.  Urine just wants to be remembered as the man who killed Jaime Lannister.  Since when?

Sandor turning Arya away going to kill Cersei was a nice scene (although, again, I think it was stupid for her to be there at all).

Cleganebowl.  Never wanted it and still don’t but Qyburn got the death he deserved so I suppose that’s a plus … ish.

Jaime and Cersei reunion – you can really see where D&D’s sympathies lie.  They get the touching scene and the tragic, doomed couple scenario.  There was just no point to Jaime’s going north and being with Brienne.

Arya wandering then running though KL.  She should have died several times over.  She manages to get some woman and her daughter killed – way to go, Arya. 

White dragon skull.  Damn, I forgot they don’t do the black dragon skulls.  Annoyed all over again. Did Jaime have both hands?  I do believe he did!  :tantrum: Well, at least Carol and Larry are dead.  About time too.  They lasted way too long.  I didn’t mind that they got their theme tune – Rains of Castamere is all about the destruction of a house – let it be theirs.  (Although I suspect Tyrion will live – which is a damn shame.)

We end up with just Arya still standing in KL due to heavyweight plot armour.  And then - random white noble steed appears!  Dany’s silver reincarnated?  Shadowfax?  God knows because I certainly don’t.

Am I to understand they’re setting her up to kill Dany. Sure, why not.  Arya kills both big bads.  Just wouldn’t surprise me now.  It’s all just plotzee to them anyway and all hateful to me. 

There’s just no way there can be any kind of bittersweet ending from the show.  It’s all bitter.

I got bored with the scenes of milling civilians; annoyed with the whiplash changes of static to hectic and back again.  I am, however, looking forward to seeing the smoking ruins on the opening credits next week.

VFX and music and performances were good, as always, but the direction was poor and the pacing was truly appalling and the writing was abject rubbish.

 

 

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Is there ANYTHING that could happen in the finale that would make all these wasted characters and storylines make sense? Like some huge plot twist that makes us all regret the terrible criticism of this final season? Something that explains all these out of character behaviors and justifies the way the story has been told this last season? 

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