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•Brandon Ice Eyes

The Red Wedding Was Justified.

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2 hours ago, Eddard Waters said:

I'm half tempted to make a thread titled "Jon Snow is literally worse than Hitler and is the second coming of Satan"

I'd read it. You know you would have people agreeing with you too. 

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3 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

SNIP   But from the point of view of battle strategy, RW was brilliant.  

 

However, in the long term, it is suicide. The Frey's will never live this down; they will not be trusted by any one for generations to come, that is, if they survive as a family that long.

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Bolton and Frey had twice the numbers Robb had at the red wedding. They could’ve simply just attacked him on the rear during his March north. If Robb died in a battle he was betrayed in, no one (at least south of the neck) would’ve cared, since it was war and it would look like two loyal houses were getting rid of a traitor. There are a dozen of other ways to get rid of Robb and his army, without breaking guest right. Anything but the Red Wedding would have been justified.

Edited by The Young Maester

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7 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

However, in the long term, it is suicide. The Frey's will never live this down; they will not be trusted by any one for generations to come, that is, if they survive as a family that long.

In the long term The Others are coming south in which case The North will rally to fight them as a common enemy. The South will fight too if proof is provided and if the others do reach the trident, then they definitely will have enough proof, long term, i.e, after the War for the Dawn is over, The Frey's will be fucked, but my point is that the Red Wedding was necessary to bring the north under heel quickly so that if house Bolton has hostages, then the Northern Lords will obey them and when the others come south, they can be dealt with by a stronger North, because lets be honest, will Tywin Lannister ever come North for Robb Stark. 

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7 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

In the long term The Others are coming south in which case The North will rally to fight them as a common enemy. The South will fight too if proof is provided and if the others do reach the trident, then they definitely will have enough proof, long term, i.e, after the War for the Dawn is over, The Frey's will be fucked, but my point is that the Red Wedding was necessary to bring the north under heel quickly so that if house Bolton has hostages, then the Northern Lords will obey them and when the others come south, they can be dealt with by a stronger North, because lets be honest, will Tywin Lannister ever come North for Robb Stark. 

All that is moot, since the Frey's know nothing of the Others, heck, the Northern's don't even believe in the Others anymore. The idea that the Bolton's participated in the Red Wedding in order to be prepared for the Others is laughable.

Edited by Ser Leftwich

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23 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

The Red Wedding Was Justified.

Right, so call me absurd and ridiculous but hear me out. The Red wedding, whilst cruel was justified. The thing is, Robb had lost, and was going back North where he intended to rout the Ironborn from his land and after that, I doubt he’d leave the riverlands on there own in the south. Frankly, it would have been more needless war. 

Yet, if Robb had passed by Moat Cailin, then it would have been impossible to catch him and for that reason his death was necessary no matter how ruthless. 

It is my opinion that people only have a problem with his death because House Stark are well like by ASOIAF fans, including myself (As shown my Username), yet because of this popularity, we refuse to accept that he was one person and his death was necessary to ensure that no else died and peace could return. Ultimately, it didn’t restore peace, HOWEVER, this was not because of the Red wedding but because of Joffery’s poisoning and Tywins subsequent death which meant that the realm slipped into Cersei’s hands, but this had nothing to do with the Red wedding, which in itself was a well thought out plan to dispatch of Robb Stark who had no intentions of restoring peace.

I know I’m going to rattle a lot of people with this, so please leave your thoughts below as to wether you agree with me or not.

Justification is in the eye of the beholder. To the north, it was wholly unjustified, vile, treacherous murder. In Lannisport, it was a fully justifiable master-stroke of tactics and strategy.

Most Americans (although not as many as in past generations) think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified because, like the RW, it prevented even more bloodshed by bringing an early end to the war. Most Japanese tend to think otherwise.

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7 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

In the long term The Others are coming south in which case The North will rally to fight them as a common enemy. The South will fight too if proof is provided and if the others do reach the trident, then they definitely will have enough proof, long term, i.e, after the War for the Dawn is over, The Frey's will be fucked, but my point is that the Red Wedding was necessary to bring the north under heel quickly so that if house Bolton has hostages, then the Northern Lords will obey them and when the others come south, they can be dealt with by a stronger North, because lets be honest, will Tywin Lannister ever come North for Robb Stark. 

As it stands now. I don’t see Bolton putting up a good fight against the Others. Roose Bolton will more likely not believe in the warnings the Nights watch sends there way. And once the others invade it would have been too late since Roose would have been busy putting down uprisings around the North, and most likely fighting a full out blown war against Manderly.

It’s pretty clear Bolton has to go in order for the North to survive. Right now isn’t the time to challenge the position of a thousand year old ruling dynasty.

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Just now, John Suburbs said:

Justification is in the eye of the beholder. To the north, it was wholly unjustified, vile, treacherous murder. In Lannisport, it was a fully justifiable master-stroke of tactics and strategy.

Most Americans (although not as many as in past generations) think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified because, like the RW, it prevented even more bloodshed by bringing an early end to the war. Most Japanese tend to think otherwise.

But even the Lannister’s see the Freys as Cunts for the Red Wedding. It’s more like the Freys believe it was justified, but to me it seems that as soon as the Freys start getting into a sticky situation, the Lannister’s will jump ship. 

The thing is people outside America like in Europe will see the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as unjustified and barbaric. But to the typical American it won’t because they were at war with the Japs, and had a hatred towards them.

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19 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Robb Stark had lost, why bother murdering him at a wedding banquet?

No, when your only chance at besting an enemy is to take advantage of their good nature and lure them into a trap, you are the one who has lost. Not only that but you are desperate and outgunned.

Meh all Walder had to do was close his gates. The northmen couldn't have forced their way across and lacked the ability to move their men across the Red Fork north of anywhere but the ruby ford, which would have been under control by Roose / Tywin's men. They would have had Robb cornered with minimal effort and could have forced him to surrender.

Put it simply Robb could not have gone home without the Freys letting him cross at the Twins. It was simply more pragmatic for Tywin to let the Freys and Boltons commit atrocities at the RW and not take any blame for it. It was by no means necessary.

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The Red Wedding was not justified. The Freys were justifiably angry with their king, but the actions they took were not. 0%. Zippo. Nada. No.

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Tywin Lannister talks out of his ass. He didn't kill a few people over dinner. It was a massacre, at a wedding. And nobody, apart from individuals such as yourself can respect or condone this strategy. 

The Westerossi respect brave fighters. That's what they like to see. It's bloodshed, but there's some honour in meeting your foe with steel in hand. They also like to feel safe when visiting one another's castles and the guest right is the solitary pillar which holds this value aloft. To see both values being perverted this way is disturbing to the Westerossi. It's shameful and cowardly. 

The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. 

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3 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. 

Never thought about this. It’s so true though. 

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32 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. 

We don't know how much of the plan was actually Tywin's. Though, it is true that the Freys have gotten all the ire, regardless of who planned which details.

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45 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We don't know how much of the plan was actually Tywin's. Though, it is true that the Freys have gotten all the ire, regardless of who planned which details.

Tywin's political saviness has increased since the Tarbeck/Reyne Rebellion, but his ruthlessness has not. The Freys received promises and the Lion gave his blessing.

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2 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Tywin Lannister talks out of his ass. He didn't kill a few people over dinner. It was a massacre, at a wedding. And nobody, apart from individuals such as yourself can respect or condone this strategy. 

The Westerossi respect brave fighters. That's what they like to see. It's bloodshed, but there's some honour in meeting your foe with steel in hand. They also like to feel safe when visiting one another's castles and the guest right is the solitary pillar which holds this value aloft. To see both values being perverted this way is disturbing to the Westerossi. It's shameful and cowardly. 

The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. 

Pretty much this.

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3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Tywin Lannister talks out of his ass. He didn't kill a few people over dinner.

Tywin didn't kill anyone. Frey and Northmen did all the killing.

And while it was more than a few people, it was not that much more. Many of the guests in the castle were taken hostage, some killed but we are talking a maximum of hundreds.

The soldiers outside, not protected by Guest Rights, are another matter.

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 

It was a massacre, at a wedding. And nobody, apart from individuals such as yourself can respect or condone this strategy. 

Yes. Correct. The only people who can respect or condone this strategy are the people who respect or condone this strategy.

Brilliant insight!

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The Westerossi respect brave fighters.

Sure. They also respect victory.

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 

That's what they like to see. It's bloodshed, but there's some honour in meeting your foe with steel in hand.

Unless they are sleeping? Like Robb often did, attack sleeping enemies. The green lads at Oxcross were reportedly untrained and unarmed when Robb slaughtered them. It's war, victory is more important than honour.

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 

They also like to feel safe when visiting one another's castles and the guest right is the solitary pillar which holds this value aloft. To see both values being perverted this way is disturbing to the Westerossi. It's shameful and cowardly. 

True. I agree with this. I feel Walder was justified, but obviously there are negative consequences to his actions. To a lesser extent this is true for every leader in a war.

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The one clever bit of the RW was the way that Tywin managed to shift the entire focus of Northern hostility away from House Lannister and squarely onto The Freys. 

The clever thing was eradicating the majority of the Northern force, by having them kill each other. There was 7,000 Northern soldiers at the Twins. 3,500 on each side of the 'battle'.

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It was the tactic that limited the Frey exposure to danger.  Walder maximized his chances of success while minimizing the risk of his people getting killed by the Starks.   The Freys do not deserve to lose their bridge to support the Starks.  The Starks are not worth it and Robb does not deserve the loyalty of the Freys.  The Lannisters could have demanded the Freys give up the bridge as compensation for joining Robb's Rebellion.  That was unjustified risk.  Bloodraven took away 90% of Butterwell's assets.  Tywin is meaner than Bloodraven.  He might take the bridge and give it to an ally instead.  

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On 9/4/2019 at 6:52 PM, Victor Newman said:

There are many of us who dislike the Starks.  So please do not make blanket statements that imply they are universally liked.  They are not.  

So true.  I don't like most of the Starks.  Bran is fine but I don't like Arya, Jon, and Sansa.  

On 9/4/2019 at 6:52 PM, Victor Newman said:

The Red Wedding was the only move for Walder Frey and Roose Bolton to make sure they finish out this war with their heads on their shoulders.  Robb and Catelyn proved to the world that Stark leadership is worth less than sunbaked cowshit.  Walder saw them losing and Robb will hang the Freys to dry.  It became clear that the Starks do not and never have respected the Freys.  Walder owed nothing to the Starks.  Ravens flew back and forth with Tywin.  The Freys have to prove their worth and the way to do that is to destroy the Stark threat and end their rebellion.  But how do the Freys do that?  The Starks and his leige lord (Tullys) are bound by blood.  Walder had to destroy the Starks and the Tullys at the same time to make sure his family is safe from retaliation.  How can David Frey take on the Stark Goliath?  The only way is trickery.  The RW is not justified from a moral point of view.  Neither is the Stark's breaking of an oath.  But from the point of view of battle strategy, RW was brilliant.  

 

Roose's sneaky undermining would become known sooner or later.  He was in mortal danger as long as the Starks remain his lords.  He had greater need to remove them from power than Walder did.  

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