Jump to content
Gaston de Foix

Star Wars: The Saga Continues

Recommended Posts

17 hours ago, Kalibear said:

I like the show and it's fun, but again - it's not great, it certainly isn't up there with TLJ in my mind, and most of it is very forgettable. 

I agree unfortunately. It helps that I erased most of the really bad stuff from TLJ but overall I'd say that the good in it is much better than the Mandolorian. That being said, with not much else to do, I'm willing to give it another season. Although I hope it significantly improves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, felice said:

Do they? It's probably pretty well known that the Rebels blew up a couple of Death Stars, and the Emperor was on the second one at the time, but are the names of the specific people involved that widely known? There's not much evidence of a galactic news service in the films.

Luke is known as being the one to blow up the first Death Star.  It's literally always been (Movies, comics, EU etc) how Vader finds out he has a son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mandolorian gets bonus points for style and that is what is keeping it quite high on my list of SW shows. Even as a fan of it, I recognise that is has a few duff episodes and hasn't quite delivered on it's promise. 

Having said that, I would much rather watch the cruddiest Mando episode than put myself through TLJ again. Nothing in Mando makes me feel physically unwell and give me a headache like that movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're generous, TLJ was basically on par with The Mandalorian, but with a bigger budget.

I dunno if I feel generous though. TLJ had a shot at taking the sequels in an interesting direction, but basically blew it by destroying everything TFA had tried to do, thus forcing RoS to start from scratch (which it failed to do properly, dismally).
What I'm getting at is that it shouldn't be forgotten that the disaster that was RoS is partly to blame on TLJ. Yeah, maybe TLJ was decent, if we're generous, but it's easier to have a decent movie in a trilogy if you basically fuck everything up and make it near impossible for the next guy to pick up the story...

The thing about The Mandalorian is that we don't really care where it's going. There's no imperative, no pressure... It can be cliché, it can be original, it can be its own thing... It's like, whatever. The characters are Filoni & Favreau's anyway, as long as its entertaining and cool no one will give a fuck.

5 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Luke is known as being the one to blow up the first Death Star.  It's literally always been (Movies, comics, EU etc) how Vader finds out he has a son.

It's known to well-informed people, it doesn't mean the galaxy at large knows it. In fact, I would have thought that the movies (both the prequels and the OT) and fan discussions everywhere had established that for most people "Jedi" is just a form of weird religion and the force-wielders themselves are half-myth.

FFS, even when the Jedi were in full force and operating throughout the galaxy, people barely believed in them (see: Watu & Anakin).

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Having said that, I would much rather watch the cruddiest Mando episode than put myself through TLJ again. Nothing in Mando makes me feel physically unwell and give me a headache like that movie.

Yeah... To me TLJ is a bit like Attack of the Clones. It's got its cool moments (/visuals), but the story is a headache.

The difference, imho, is that Revenge of the Sith is a decent movie. Yeah, I know many people don't agree, and I don't care: RotS did its job of linking the prequels to the OT, AND had great moments AND stunning visuals (and music). Attack of the Clones was meh, but at least it didn't fuck things up for the final movie of its trilogy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

The thing about The Mandalorian is that we don't really care where it's going. There's no imperative, no pressure... It can be cliché, it can be original, it can be its own thing... It's like, whatever. The characters are Filoni & Favreau's anyway, as long as its entertaining and cool no one will give a fuck.

This is pretty true for me. I really like the characters, I love baby Yoda.. I love the way it looks, I love individual scenes, I love the setting. I could take or leave the story quite frankly, and I think that is part of the point.

If the show went for 20 seasons of just Mando and baby Yoda travelling the galaxy fixing local problems, under the loose guise of getting baby yoda to safety then I'd be more than ok with that.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if Favreau wanted the Mandalorian to be a Star Wars heavyweight. It's a high-budget sci fi remake of cheesy spaghetti westerns. My dad doesn't like any sci fi or fantasy, but he does love westerns. I convinced my parents to watch the series with me, and they've been thrilled. Dad routinely makes a satisfied grunt when they hit his favorite western beat; most recently in episode 6 when the Cocky Rookie underestimates his first job on the frontier. 

It's utterly corny, and each cameo, in my opinion, is clearly an actor thinking "Okay, I'm a 60s cowboy character, only it's aliens. This is gonna be so fun."

Favreau is capable of creating modern stories with heft. I don't think he's trying that here, although I understand it's Star Wars and we're all going to debate the logic of a 'tracking fob' and Baby Yoda's bafflingly agile stump legs ad nauseum, same as I spent a lifetime bitching about the nonsensical character arcs in the movies. 

I'm quite curious if the second season keeps the characters, but abandons the simplistic western tribute vibe. Lone Gunman Recruits, Lone Gunman Saves Village, Lone Gunman Respects The Natives - perhaps they'll be like Archer and adapt to a new archetype. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

If we're generous, TLJ was basically on par with The Mandalorian, but with a bigger budget.

I dunno if I feel generous though. TLJ had a shot at taking the sequels in an interesting direction, but basically blew it by destroying everything TFA had tried to do, thus forcing RoS to start from scratch (which it failed to do properly, dismally).
What I'm getting at is that it shouldn't be forgotten that the disaster that was RoS is partly to blame on TLJ. Yeah, maybe TLJ was decent, if we're generous, but it's easier to have a decent movie in a trilogy if you basically fuck everything up and make it near impossible for the next guy to pick up the story...

The thing about The Mandalorian is that we don't really care where it's going. There's no imperative, no pressure... It can be cliché, it can be original, it can be its own thing... It's like, whatever. The characters are Filoni & Favreau's anyway, as long as its entertaining and cool no one will give a fuck.

It's known to well-informed people, it doesn't mean the galaxy at large knows it. In fact, I would have thought that the movies (both the prequels and the OT) and fan discussions everywhere had established that for most people "Jedi" is just a form of weird religion and the force-wielders themselves are half-myth.

FFS, even when the Jedi were in full force and operating throughout the galaxy, people barely believed in them (see: Watu & Anakin).

Yeah... To me TLJ is a bit like Attack of the Clones. It's got its cool moments (/visuals), but the story is a headache.

The difference, imho, is that Revenge of the Sith is a decent movie. Yeah, I know many people don't agree, and I don't care: RotS did its job of linking the prequels to the OT, AND had great moments AND stunning visuals (and music). Attack of the Clones was meh, but at least it didn't fuck things up for the final movie of its trilogy.

I always assumed that Luke would have been a galactic sized hero.  There's no way the Rebellion wouldn't have put his face on every recruiting poster across the galaxy.  The farm boy who destroyed the Empire's greatest weapon with a single perfect shot. . . who has a better story than Luke?  He's a thousand times more important than any regular Medal of Honor winner or Admiral, and easily identifiable by the public as a hero.  The Force is also very important to the people of the Rebel Alliance (although I never understood why), so the fact that he's a Jedi would probably get some publicity as well later on.

That he and Vader took down the Emperor would probably be less well known, there's no independent verification and its almost so strange as to be unbelievable.   Luke's actions would probably stay in the less publicized or possibly secret records. 

The Battle of Endor would probably go down in history as a group effort of the entire Rebel Alliance, but Luke would still be a great hero though.  They'd list him as having been a part of the commando unit that took down the shields, and was captured briefly by the evil darth vader before then escaping during the destruction of the star.  That's still an awesome story!

If it was our world they'd have mad a bunch of movies about the heroes of the Rebel Alliance.

Edited by argonak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, argonak said:

With regard to people not believing in Jedi, Watu and Anakin didn't live in the Old Republic.  But they'd still HEARD of Jedi.

But that's the thing: we're given to understand the New Republic was even weaker than the old one. Assuming the Rebellion and the Senate did decide to put forward Luke for propaganda purposes (and assuming Luke was ok with that), the info still wouldn't have spread that far.
I'm not convinced the politicians of the New Republic would have wanted to give Luke too much clout and influence. Well-informed people would bear in mind that force-wielders can quickly turn into problems.
And anyway, we do have the movies. How many students did Luke have? IIRC a dozen or two? If Luke was this galactic super-celebrity, wouldn't his Temple be about as massive as the old one, with tons of other teachers (not necessarily force-wielders, there's a bit more to being a Jedi than the Force). But it wasn't. From the movies we get the feeling Luke's school was a small affair. Not that this was what I expected, or that I like that, but that's what we got...

Also, Watu and Anakin have heard of Jedi, but I didn't get the feeling Anakin knew about Yoda beforehand, even though Yoda would have been a super-celebrity by then, given his longevity... and looks. In other words, it's one thing to know about Jedi, or to hear rumors about their achievements. Knowing their name is already something else entirely. It's a big galaxy, and communication is rather primitive in the StarWars universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, argonak said:

I always assumed that Luke would have been a galactic sized hero.  There's no way the Rebellion wouldn't have put his face on every recruiting poster across the galaxy.  The farm boy who destroyed the Empire's greatest weapon with a single perfect shot. . . who has a better story than Luke?  He's a thousand times more important than any regular Medal of Honor winner or Admiral, and easily identifiable by the public as a hero.  The Force is also very important to the people of the Rebel Alliance (although I never understood why), so the fact that he's a Jedi would probably get some publicity as well later on.

That he and Vader took down the Emperor would probably be less well known, there's no independent verification and its almost so strange as to be unbelievable.   Luke's actions would probably stay in the less publicized or possibly secret records. 

The Battle of Endor would probably go down in history as a group effort of the entire Rebel Alliance, but Luke would still be a great hero though.  They'd list him as having been a part of the commando unit that took down the shields, and was captured briefly by the evil darth vader before then escaping during the destruction of the star.  That's still an awesome story!

If it was our world they'd have mad a bunch of movies about the heroes of the Rebel Alliance.

 

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But that's the thing: we're given to understand the New Republic was even weaker than the old one. Assuming the Rebellion and the Senate did decide to put forward Luke for propaganda purposes (and assuming Luke was ok with that), the info still wouldn't have spread that far.
I'm not convinced the politicians of the New Republic would have wanted to give Luke too much clout and influence. Well-informed people would bear in mind that force-wielders can quickly turn into problems.
And anyway, we do have the movies. How many students did Luke have? IIRC a dozen or two? If Luke was this galactic super-celebrity, wouldn't his Temple be about as massive as the old one, with tons of other teachers (not necessarily force-wielders, there's a bit more to being a Jedi than the Force). But it wasn't. From the movies we get the feeling Luke's school was a small affair. Not that this was what I expected, or that I like that, but that's what we got...

Also, Watu and Anakin have heard of Jedi, but I didn't get the feeling Anakin knew about Yoda beforehand, even though Yoda would have been a super-celebrity by then, given his longevity... and looks. In other words, it's one thing to know about Jedi, or to hear rumors about their achievements. Knowing their name is already something else entirely. It's a big galaxy, and communication is rather primitive in the StarWars universe.

It's a bit nebulous about how wide-spread certain knowledge really is. For example, Rey knows about Luke, but more like a legend. But The Mandalorian takes place only about 5 years after Endor, so the names of war heroes may not have traveled to the outer regions. Also, in one of the books, I think one of the shitty Aftermath books (only read the first one) the New Republic went in a different direction than the Empire with its military. I think they created a small force that could go around and help planets, but otherwise left the individual systems to establish their own defensive measures. Therefore, there probably wouldn't be many recruitment campaigns and posters featuring the heroes of the Civil War. 

We also don't know how much more role Luke had in the war that didn't actually end with Endor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

But that's the thing: we're given to understand the New Republic was even weaker than the old one. Assuming the Rebellion and the Senate did decide to put forward Luke for propaganda purposes (and assuming Luke was ok with that), the info still wouldn't have spread that far.
I'm not convinced the politicians of the New Republic would have wanted to give Luke too much clout and influence. Well-informed people would bear in mind that force-wielders can quickly turn into problems.
And anyway, we do have the movies. How many students did Luke have? IIRC a dozen or two? If Luke was this galactic super-celebrity, wouldn't his Temple be about as massive as the old one, with tons of other teachers (not necessarily force-wielders, there's a bit more to being a Jedi than the Force). But it wasn't. From the movies we get the feeling Luke's school was a small affair. Not that this was what I expected, or that I like that, but that's what we got...

Also, Watu and Anakin have heard of Jedi, but I didn't get the feeling Anakin knew about Yoda beforehand, even though Yoda would have been a super-celebrity by then, given his longevity... and looks. In other words, it's one thing to know about Jedi, or to hear rumors about their achievements. Knowing their name is already something else entirely. It's a big galaxy, and communication is rather primitive in the StarWars universe.

If you go looking for logic in the newer movies you're just going to get a headache.  They're not internally consistent, let alone consistent with the other two trilogies.

One of my biggest problems with TFA was "Why did anyone care about Luke?"  There was this huge push to go find Luke. . . as if one old man was going to be able to deal with the fleets of starships and empires.  The only way it made sense to me at the time was that Luke was some sort of galactic celebrity that everyone would rally behind and bring back order to the New Republic.  I assumed it would be like calling George Washington out of retirement (if he was still alive) during the war of 1812.  Instead we got. . . whatever it was.

I think the Jedi would be famous as cultural icons, not on an individual basis.  The Jedi Order wouldn't be a fan of that, and it doesn't serve their purposes anyway.  The Jedi gave up being in charge of the Republic long ago, and are just a monastic arm of peace keepers whose primary purpose was to watch out for Sith.  But the image of a superhero with magical powers and a laser sword would absolutely get talked about and spread throughout the galaxy.  I don't think a frontier junk dealer and a slave would have particularly high levels of knowledge.  If you'd ask some backwoods settlers in the western frontier, you'd be lucky if they knew who the King was, let alone who the PM or major ministers were, or the Generals and Admirals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, argonak said:

The only way it made sense to me at the time was that Luke was some sort of galactic celebrity that everyone would rally behind and bring back order to the New Republic.

Luke was the Rebellion's hero, there's no doubt about that. This doesn't mean he was known throughout the galaxy. For all we know the rebels were largely overestimating his importance to begin with.

7 minutes ago, argonak said:

But the image of a superhero with magical powers and a laser sword would absolutely get talked about and spread throughout the galaxy.  I don't think a frontier junk dealer and a slave would have particularly high levels of knowledge.  If you'd ask some backwoods settlers in the western frontier, you'd be lucky if they knew who the King was, let alone who the PM or major ministers were, or the Generals and Admirals.

But Mando operates precisely on the "frontier," among "backwoods settlers" ... I'm not sure we disagree on anything here (?).

Regardless of one's opinion on how famous Luke was after Endor, there's absolutely no problem with small groups of Mandalorians operating on the galactic frontier not having heard of him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, argonak said:

One of my biggest problems with TFA was "Why did anyone care about Luke?"  There was this huge push to go find Luke. . . as if one old man was going to be able to deal with the fleets of starships and empires. 

Rian Johnson?  Is that you?!!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Rian Johnson?  Is that you?!!?

That is really hurtful.  I meant. . . why were people in the movie (other than Leia), so focused on finding him?  What was he supposed to do to help them with their problem, which was a rising fascist empire in the non-republic part of the galaxy.

What I got from TFA was that the New Republic had decided they didn't want to deal with the FO publicly, and so they'd had Leia put together a fleet of resistance fighters and go fight a proxy war against the FO.  This didn't seem to be working too well however, and somehow they hadn't found out about starkiller base.  Although how you hide something like THAT, I don't know.  But Poe is out there trying to find Luke, even though he's not family or friend.  I could get Han looking for Luke.  Or if Leia had Poe doing it on her authority because she wants her brother back.  But the only reason I could think of for the resistance to want Luke was for his use as a symbol to rally support to them.  

I was really excited to find out why Luke was so important in this new situation.  And. . . he wasn't.

Edited by argonak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, argonak said:

What I got from TFA was that the New Republic had decided they didn't want to deal with the FO publicly, and so they'd had Leia put together a fleet of resistance fighters and go fight a proxy war against the FO.  This didn't seem to be working too well however, and somehow they hadn't found out about starkiller base.  Although how you hide something like THAT, I don't know.  But Poe is out there trying to find Luke, even though he's not family or friend.  I could get Han looking for Luke.  Or if Leia had Poe doing it on her authority because she wants her brother back.  But the only reason I could think of for the resistance to want Luke was for his use as a symbol to rally support to them.  

Close, but not quite. Leia was a senator in the New Republic Senate for a time, but quit in frustration because the NR wasn't doing much to counter the growing threat of the First Order. There were even factions in the Senate sympathetic to the FO. She forms the Resistance, a group of like minded individuals, and that is why she is called a general. She does have some support in the Republic, and so she does have funds. Which is why the FO believes the Republic is secretly financing the Resistance. There is a deleted scene in TFA where Leia had sent her envoy to the Senate to plead her case about getting more support. The woman you see staring at the sky of Hosnian Prime as it becomes red is that envoy.

As to how Starkiller base was kept secret? I'm wondering more how the FO had the resources and time to make it happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, argonak said:

That is really hurtful. 

...

I was really excited to find out why Luke was so important in this new situation.  And. . . he wasn't.

Well, I was referring to the fact that Luke pretty much delivers that exact line in TLJ.  “What you think I’m going to show up with a laser sword and save the galaxy?”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, argonak said:

That is really hurtful.  I meant. . . why were people in the movie (other than Leia), so focused on finding him?  What was he supposed to do to help them with their problem, which was a rising fascist empire in the non-republic part of the galaxy.

Because JJ needed him to not be in the movie and he didn't think much beyond that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't read the info that Mando is given on the Jedi as coming from the "Republic/Empire/Rebellion" information channel, but rather the Mandalorian chain of information. The Jedi were ancient enemies of the Mandalorians and its from that point of view that Mando is expecting them to be enemies, not because its the propaganda from the Empire. As such I'd expect it to be completely disconnected from Luke and the Rebellion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Durckad said:

Because JJ needed him to not be in the movie and he didn't think much beyond that point.

No, he needed a substitute for the Death Star plans in his New Hope remake, and came up with the map to Luke, but while the plans were the key to destroying the superweapon du jour, the map didn't have that plot function, and he failed to come up with an alternative role for it. It's just there, with meaningless inherited importance.

17 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Luke is known as being the one to blow up the first Death Star.  It's literally always been (Movies, comics, EU etc) how Vader finds out he has a son.

Vader finds out, yes. Most likely by investigating where Kenobi and the Falcon came from. But in ESB, Lando hasn't got a clue who "somebody called Skywalker" is or why Vader would be interested in him, and I'd expect him to be pretty well informed by the standards of the galaxy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Star Wars has always had this massive problem where vast numbers of people have never heard of the Jedi, or heard of them vaguely but as a myth, but just 19 years earlier there was a shit-ton of them fighting at the vanguard of a massive, galaxy-spanning war that lasted for several years. Which is a bit like us dismissing things that happened in 2001 as being myth and there being no easy way of checking up on them. It never made sense.

I understand never meeting a Jedi - there was supposedly less than 10,000 of them in a galaxy with many millions of inhabited planets and a population in quadrillions - but never having heard of them or thinking of them as a myth is weird. And the Mandalorians and Jedi had some significant history, as spelled out in The Clone Wars which had some of the same writers (!).

Edited by Werthead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Star Wars has always had this massive problem where vast numbers of people have never heard of the Jedi, or heard of them vaguely but as a myth, but just 19 years earlier there was a shit-ton of them fighting at the vanguard of a massive, galaxy-spanning war that lasted for several years. Which is a bit like us dismissing things that happened in 2001 as being myth and there being no easy way of checking up on them. It never made sense.

If there's no "galactic" media that makes a lot of sense on the contrary, since information would mostly travel through word-of-mouth.

And even in places where there are some decent media, it's unclear how notorious the Jedi were supposed to be.
It's not clear to me that the Republic wanted to advertise the "religion of the Force," the Jedi's importance, or their role in the war. The Empire then probably worked to erase not just their existence from everyone's minds (painting them as treacherous priests or something), but also the existence of the Force itself (lest force-wielders become a threat, especially since Palps knew the Force could manufacture a counter-power and he wanted to control them through his inquisition).
Only the New Republic may have had an interest in restoring the "old religion," and even that is debatable. We know of the differences between Jedi, Sith, and greys. I'm not sure senators and other politicians could make that difference. And if they could, they might then be aware that Jedi can fall prey to the dark side. In other words, there's no reason to believe that people would trust Jedi that much in-universe. In fact, throughout the movies, series, comics and books, they often do not.
And who can blame them, given the story as we know it? I don't think I would trust a Jedi with that much. At least not spontaneously.

While we're at it, let's bear in mind that the movies trick us into knowing about Jedi powers, but in-universe Jedi did not like to show their powers, except when absolutely necessary. The war changed that, but the enemy was either droids or -toward the end- clones, meaning that few "citizens" would have directly witnessed the Jedi using their powers - or even their lightsabers.
In short, the trailer's description of Jedi as "sorcerers" is perfectly believable to me. That is indeed how a random person would think of the Jedi in-universe. And while the Armorer, being Mandalorian, probably knows more than she tells Mando in the trailer, why would she tell him too much, since she is sending Mando to befriend Jedi? Surely it's best if Mando isn't too wary of any Jedi he may meet?

Anyway, beyond the fan-debate here, it's simply cooler that way. Mando is sent on a quest with limited information... That way he'll underestimate Ahsoka when he meets her. I don't think we want Mando to know what Ahsoka is capable of, do we? Where would the fun be in that? ^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...