The Trouble With Peace by Joe Abercrombie [SPOILER THREAD]

[Ninefingers]

I'm not going to defend Broad the character so far, but I think we'd be well served to hold off on a final assessment until the story is done. He's almost definitely going to be the owl, so there's a good deal more time for him to get more interesting.

[The hairy bear]

Even if Broad ends playing a crucial role on the resolution of the saga, he still could have been a much better designed character. But of course, we will wait until the next book comes out to pass the final judgement.

I wouldn't bet much on him being the owl, though. Joe only included his glasses late in the process, when writing his second draft of the first book.

[Nictarion]

On 10/7/2020 at 11:53 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Well jeez. I LOVED this one. Now to read seven pages of people who it looks like didn’t. A pox upon you! :p

 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:20 AM, BigFatCoward said:

I'm with you. Best book I've read this year. Top 3 JA. Currently I would go -

BSC, TTWP, TLAOK. 

 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:59 AM, SeanF said:

I loved it too.

Count me as another in the loved it camp. But I’ve pretty much loved all Joe’s First Law books.

Orso remains the best character of this trilogy for me, and he was even better in this one. His meeting with Jappo was probably my favorite chapter. 

[unJon]

On 10/9/2020 at 12:05 PM, The hairy bear said:

Even if Broad ends playing a crucial role on the resolution of the saga, he still could have been a much better designed character. But of course, we will wait until the next book comes out to pass the final judgement.

I wouldn't bet much on him being the owl, though. Joe only included his glasses late in the process, when writing his second draft of the first book.

Hard to weigh that without knowing when he wrote the owl into the prophecy. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

Rest in Power Dogman, last of the old crew 

[ljkeane]

I just finished. It took me a while to get into it but overall I'm another one who really enjoyed it.

One thing that strikes me across the two books so far is that Glokta is suspiciously bad at his job. Ok Pike might have been undermining him but he missed a hell of a lot for someone as capable as him. I think there's something going on there.

Other than that I think my favourite bit of the book was Finree and Ardee ambushing Leo to strong arm him into marrying Savine. 'Rawr'. 

 

[williamjm]

21 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

One thing that strikes me across the two books so far is that Glokta is suspiciously bad at his job. Ok Pike might have been undermining him but he missed a hell of a lot for someone as capable as him. I think there's something going on there.

I'm sure we haven't heard the last of him. I agree that it seems odd that he would be so inept, while I might be able to believe that he might have a blindspot where his daughter is concerned I find it less likely that he could be fooled by his underlings so comprehensively, especially given his past history inevitably making him suspicious of the people working for him.

[Mark Antony]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:53 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Well jeez. I LOVED this one. Now to read seven pages of people who it looks like didn’t. A pox upon you! :p

Seems mostly positive here 

[Mark Antony]

On 10/9/2020 at 11:19 AM, Nictarion said:

 

 

Count me as another in the loved it camp. But I’ve pretty much loved all Joe’s First Law books.

Orso remains the best character of this trilogy for me, and he was even better in this one. His meeting with Jappo was probably my favorite chapter. 

Really hope Jappo is POV in a future Standalone. 

[All Cats Are Bad]

Lord Grimdark did it again. Upon first reading I feel like I liked the first book a little bit better, but by and large I'm still loving this trilogy more than anything he's written previously. Still have an hour and a half left to go in the audiobook.

Think we'll see Logen's kids from Red Country in Book 3?

[HexMachina]

I just finished it, overall enjoyed it but the latter half was a lot better than the first half, I felt. Not that the first half was bad, there was just a lot of set up and such that dragged at times.

Sure most things have already been raised at this point. My own quick thoughts:

 

• just tell us who Zuri is and why she attached herself to Savine already. I also caught the bandaging thing and assumed we would get an East Wind reveal but sadly no. I almost expected her to be busting Leo out of his execution actually.
• Agree that Broad is a disappointment of a character thus far. He’s not entertaining to read as a POV and doesn’t add a lot to the story.
• My favourite POV characters after this book are definitely Rikke and Vick. Vick edges it because of my next point but both are very interesting and I enjoyed Vick’s full backstory regarding her brother. And it was good to see Vitari again, albeit briefly. Rikke was very clever in this and looking forward to seeing more from her.
• Rikke’s early chapters bothered me. I didn’t so much mind the disjointed trippy nature of them, that made sense it context. But the resolution of that with Caurib and the Shanka seemed weak and left more questions than answers. I was convinced we would see more of that plotline once we were introduced to Caurib (i vaguely alluded to this in the reading thread, because i had previously commented about not hearing more from the Shanka, and the confusion as to who or what Caurib was). I guess it could still come into play in the next book so i won’t rule it out yet. But it did feel a little flat to me.
• My favourite chapter was, unsurprisingly, The Small People. Joe really excels at these rapid switch POV chapters that are almost self contained short stories within the novel. I also enjoyed here (and other places through the novel of course) the little callbacks to previous books or things from the First Law world.
• I didn’t mind Pike revealed as the Weaver. It didn’t shock me but I wasn’t disappointed by it either. Interested to see how that proceeds.
• Caught Jappo being Shivers’ son. Now i want them to meet  
• i want more of Jappo. If not in the next book then could Joe write a short from his POV? Please?
• Orso has probably had the most growth as a character so far and I’ve really grown to like him a lot. I don’t have high hopes for his longevity though but maybe Joe will be kind....
• With so many references to the House of the Maker, breaking it open, Euz, etc.... I am going to be disappointed the damn thing is still shut next book. Sure, it could be just metaphor or whatever for the sanctamonious end of times folk but....give me magic and demons and long imprisoned Magi and evil daughters, please.
• The tiny interactions between Gorst and Brock were sweet and funny.
• I was a bit put out by Glokta fading from the story so quickly and easily. I’m sure he will be back. The question in my mind is whether he worked with Pike at all to set up the Breakers and Burners - we know how much he feared Bayaz and hated the control he had over the Union. Its not inconceivable he worked to undermine Valint & Balk. 

I’m sure there is more i forgot to say but that will do for now.

 

Edit: I would probably rate this 4/5 and rank it below the three standalones and about equal or just above the final book of the first trilogy

[Maithanet]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:04 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

• I was a bit put out by Glokta fading from the story so quickly and easily. I’m sure he will be back. The question in my mind is whether he worked with Pike at all to set up the Breakers and Burners - we know how much he feared Bayaz and hated the control he had over the Union. Its not inconceivable he worked to undermine Valint & Balk. 

Let's explore the idea that Glokta and Pike are indeed working together.  Surely Glokta knew that the insurrection was developing, and likely allowed Orso's embarrassment in the Open Council to happen.  Leo getting pulled in probably wasn't part of the plan since it exposes Savine to such risk, and so Glokta/Pike would need to improvise.  Could they have anticipated (or quickly gathered the intelligence) that Savine would side with the rebels?  Glokta is a smart guy and he certainly knew Savine, but plenty of smart people have blind spots for their loved ones, and honestly I felt like it was something of a WTF move on Savine's part given the risks.  But IF we assume that Glokta saw that betrayal coming, then the whole "stepping aside" scene was orchestrated by Glokta to manipulate Orso into picking Pike (which seemed like a fairly easy decision for Orso at the time). 

If so, I'd have to assume that the plan is for Pike to undermine Bayaz from within the govt, then reveal himself when a public betrayal would have the most impact.  Then, with the Union in chaos, Glokta could reappear as a force for stability and retake his position atop the Inquisition to lead the phony war against Pike, while actually leading the real war against Bayaz.

Seems plausible.  Thoughts?

[JGP]

On 10/12/2020 at 8:04 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

 

• Agree that Broad is a disappointment of a character thus far. He’s not entertaining to read as a POV and doesn’t add a lot to the story.

I see Broad as more of a, I don't know, I guess honest retread of the Logan/Bloody Nine dichotomy. Broad's complicated because he doesn't have this other personality [or demon taint or whatever] that accounts for his sociopathy. He's written like he's emotionally attached to his wife and daughter, but he thinks about it too much. If he were a real person I'd say he was going through the paces, doing his best to pretend he's normal. I agree though, not exciting reading.

 

On 10/12/2020 at 8:04 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

 

• Rikke’s early chapters bothered me. I didn’t so much mind the disjointed trippy nature of them, that made sense it context. But the resolution of that with Caurib and the Shanka seemed weak and left more questions than answers. I was convinced we would see more of that plotline once we were introduced to Caurib (i vaguely alluded to this in the reading thread, because i had previously commented about not hearing more from the Shanka, and the confusion as to who or what Caurib was). I guess it could still come into play in the next book so i won’t rule it out yet. But it did feel a little flat to me.

I kept thinking about Caurib as Cawneil. Not sure why, yet I also doubt it as I'm certain I've forgotten some revealed details about the latter.  

[Mentat]

Finished it and loved it.

 

On 9/25/2020 at 9:19 PM, Maithanet said:

Savine never even considered whether the rebels like Isher were truly trustworthy and whether this rebellion had any hopes of success.

 

The answer to both these questions would be yes, though.

 

The rebel councilpersons do turn up to the battle with the promised military support (though they do show their foolishness and lack of military acumen), and as far as we know their intention does seem to be to prop up Leo as the next king after their rebellion succeeds, which is what Savine wanted (with them being the power behind the throne as the Closed Council, but that's always assumed, and Savine is probably right to think she can outmanoeuvre them if need be).

 

The rebellion had lots of hopes of success, and had some things changed (Rikke's defection, Leo falling out with Jurand and leaving him behind, the weather muddying the roads, the cavalry arriving just in time, the Burners having plans of their own...) it might have well succeeded. Just because we have the gift of hindsight doesn't mean it didn't have a chance (one could even argue its success might have been more likely than its failure).

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Mentat said:

Finished it and loved it.

 

 

The answer to both these questions would be yes, though.

 

The rebel councilpersons do turn up to the battle with the promised military support (though they do show their foolishness and lack of military acumen), and as far as we know their intention does seem to be to prop up Leo as the next king after their rebellion succeeds, which is what Savine wanted (with them being the power behind the throne as the Closed Council, but that's always assumed, and Savine is probably right to think she can outmanoeuvre them if need be).

 

The rebellion had lots of hopes of success, and had some things changed (Rikke's defection, Leo falling out with Jurand and leaving him behind, the weather muddying the roads, the cavalry arriving just in time, the Burners having plans of their own...) it might have well succeeded. Just because we have the gift of hindsight doesn't mean it didn't have a chance (one could even argue its success might have been more likely than its failure).

I think the rebellion had a very high chance of success.  My objection to it is that the grounds were stupid.

[Rhom]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the rebellion had a very high chance of success.  My objection to it is that the grounds were stupid.

Stupid for who?

Isher and Crew who’s families had been jockeying for control of the Union since before we ever came to know Bayaz/Logen/Ferro/Jezal?

Leo who’s grandfather was in the same conspiracy and had legitimate gripes with the king/council over the support granted in the recent war?

Savine who has always made a play for more power?

Now, Leo was clearly pretty naive about all the issues around it; but they all had legitimate (if some maybe dishonest) reasons for rebellion.

And as to the question on if they could be trusted, I think it was quite obvious that Isher and Co could be trusted as long as things were going their way.  And as noted above, a lot of things had to go just right for Orso or the battle would have gone significantly against him.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Stupid for who?

Isher and Crew who’s families had been jockeying for control of the Union since before we ever came to know Bayaz/Logen/Ferro/Jezal?

Leo who’s grandfather was in the same conspiracy and had legitimate gripes with the king/council over the support granted in the recent war?

Savine who has always made a play for more power?

Now, Leo was clearly pretty naive about all the issues around it; but they all had legitimate (if some maybe dishonest) reasons for rebellion.

And as to the question on if they could be trusted, I think it was quite obvious that Isher and Co could be trusted as long as things were going their way.  And as noted above, a lot of things had to go just right for Orso or the battle would have gone significantly against him.

I don't think that Leo, Savine, Isher etc. had legitimate grounds for waging war at all.  They were either resentful of their positions and wished to rise higher, or butthurt that one of their number was being punished for rape, and they always had the option, as Orso pointed out, of trying to talk through their grievances with him.  Waging war at a time when the Union was already militarily weak was selfish in the extreme.

[Rhom]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Leo, Savine, Isher etc. had legitimate grounds for waging war at all.  They were either resentful of their positions and wished to rise higher, or butthurt that one of their number was being punished for rape, and they always had the option, as Orso pointed out, of trying to talk through their grievances with him.  Waging war at a time when the Union was already militarily weak was selfish in the extreme.

Selfish mayhaps... but if your goal was to take power, far from stupid.

[Mentat]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the rebellion had a very high chance of success.  My objection to it is that the grounds were stupid.

 

Though the grounds for this particular rebellion are mostly the petty ambitions of the rebels (the councilpersons want power and Leo wants to be a hero and saviour), the impression that the Union is very poorly managed is correct, and reasonable grounds for rebellion do exist.

 

The Union is drowned in debt, has been involved in several costly wars (which it lost), its outer provinces are heavily taxed and malcontent, its common folk are on the verge of an uprising, etc. It's also a puppet regime beholden to an evil wizard. Trying to talk these grievances through with Orso would likely be to no avail, as he is himself a straw man and we have seen he can rarely get any kind of policy enacted if at all. Resting control of the Union from Bayaz and his cronies, defaulting on the debt with V&B, enacting policies that protect the common folk and ensuring the provinces have adequate military support if needed and aren't crushed by taxes, would all be rebellion-worthy, as none of this can be achieved under the current regime (not that I'm claiming all of this was the rebel councilpersons' or Leo's goal).

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Mentat said:

 

Though the grounds for this particular rebellion are mostly the petty ambitions of the rebels (the councilpersons want power and Leo wants to be a hero and saviour), the impression that the Union is very poorly managed is correct, and reasonable grounds for rebellion do exist.

 

The Union is drowned in debt, has been involved in several costly wars (which it lost), its outer provinces are heavily taxed and malcontent, its common folk are on the verge of an uprising, etc. It's also a puppet regime beholden to an evil wizard. Trying to talk these grievances through with Orso would likely be to no avail, as he is himself a straw man and we have seen he can rarely get any kind of policy enacted if at all. Resting control of the Union from Bayaz and his cronies, defaulting on the debt with V&B, enacting policies that protect the common folk and ensuring the provinces have adequate military support if needed and aren't crushed by taxes, would all be rebellion-worthy, as none of this can be achieved under the current regime (not that I'm claiming all of this was the rebel councilpersons' or Leo's goal).

I wouldn't dispute the second paragraph.  I just think Leo, Savine, Isher, would be even worse.