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HerblYY

Daenerys saves everyone, but who saves Daenerys?

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Many topics were talking about Daenerys' arc, and her final fate. Well, she's not only growing up, but already began to fall.

My theory suggests that yes, she will begin her journey heading to madness, but someone will help her out of her "mental" sickness. 

But who? Jon, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, Aegon? Maybe Bran as Bloodraven's apprentice? Or these are the exact people that will push her into madness?

I'd like some more suggestions about this.

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Rather than "go mad" like Aerys. I think Dany is slowly developing an ideology that boils down to " forced world peace" or peace forged through fire. Rather than play diplomatic games she will embrace the outlook of her Valaryian ancestors who conquered Essos which is that dragonlords are the rightful rulers of the world. However Danys rational will be that she wants to "liberate" the entire world. 

I think what will "save" her will be a choice to save her unborn child rather than sacrifice the child and live on to begin her world conquest. Dany knew the cost of choosing to save Khal Drogo (Rhaegos life) and shes been running away from that. Jons Snows kid is going to play the role of lightbringer and kill Dany while also "saving her soul". 

Edited by Aemon Darkbrother

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I don't think Dany will end up going mad like in the show. Or if she does, it'll be over her obsession with having the "taint," as Barristan said about Aerys. We already have a mad queen in Cercei, so we have an idea of what red flags to look for in a potential future Mad Dany. I don't think we have seen anything so far that indicates erratic behaviour.

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Daenerys will not need to be saved. To take her story in that direction will only fall in line with the "damsel that needs saving" trope.  The boy saves the girl is not an interesting story. A much better story is that of a strong and intelligent young lady, which she is, winning the game of thrones by beating the boys.  We have seen the boys failing miserably already.  Look at the failures of Jon Snow, Robert, Robb Stark, and Quentyn.  

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6 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Rather than "go mad" like Aerys. I think Dany is slowly developing an ideology that boils down to " forced world peace" or peace forged through fire. Rather than play diplomatic games she will embrace the outlook of her Valaryian ancestors who conquered Essos which is that dragonlords are the rightful rulers of the world. However Danys rational will be that she wants to "liberate" the entire world. 

I think what will "save" her will be a choice to save her unborn child rather than sacrifice the child and live on to begin her world conquest. Dany knew the cost of choosing to save Khal Drogo (Rhaegos life) and shes been running away from that. Jons Snows kid is going to play the role of lightbringer and kill Dany while also "saving her soul". 

 

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think Dany will end up going mad like in the show. Or if she does, it'll be over her obsession with having the "taint," as Barristan said about Aerys. We already have a mad queen in Cercei, so we have an idea of what red flags to look for in a potential future Mad Dany. I don't think we have seen anything so far that indicates erratic behaviour.

Well, madness is a sharp word. Maybe  too sharp for using in Dany's case.

I never tought of her arc heading to the same direction as Aerys', it would make no sense making her just like her father.

The thing I was talking about is the collapsing of her mental health and morality. 

Developing an ideology, okay, but what kind of?

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Daenerys will not need to be saved. To take her story in that direction will only fall in line with the "damsel that needs saving" trope.  The boy saves the girl is not an interesting story. A much better story is that of a strong and intelligent young lady, which she is, winning the game of thrones by beating the boys.  We have seen the boys failing miserably already.  Look at the failures of Jon Snow, Robert, Robb Stark, and Quentyn.  

The boy saving the girl (or anyone saving a girl) can be an interesting story, just as any other story. Is the hidden prince more interesting? Or the princess in the tower? Or the hidden beauty? Or the prince  They aren't for the first time. But it depends on who writes it. That's all. Sorry for saying it, but it is a little childish to think that someone doesn't need any help. Everyone needs help and support. For now, noone proved to be Jesus himself in our story.

 

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To the OP,

Quote

Daenerys saves everyone, but who saves Daenerys?

By everyone, whom do you mean? All the slaves she freed? Some good she did by it. Most died of sickness and war. The rest work for meager wages while they at least had a steady life under former masters. I don't support slavery, just that Dany was lazy after freeing them. Just fantasizing about Daario and moaning and whining about how the freed former slaves were suffering again did nothing to help them.

And reclaiming her mad father's throne isn't so "saving"ish , just being another tyrant by prolonging the war. More dead. And it must not be high on her priority since the whole realm will be overrun by Others. Will she help the Watch with her dragons or be another Cersei like in the abomination? That will decide if she is a real saviour or not. I'm inclined to think not. She thinks Ned and all the Starks to be dogs like the Lannisters. Why would she help the Watch and Jon while all she want's is an Iron throne she never saw? She would, if she really loved the realm she wants, but we'll see, won't we?

If somebody is doing any real saving, it's Jon. Protecting the Realm from the true enemy (not the wildlings, stupid Bowen Marsh and co....and haters) is real saving. And with no credit, thats a sacrifice. But Dany has stupid freedmen who go all Mhysa mhysa over her while she thnks she's saving them (they do too).

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Its a corruption arc, not madness. She's the only one with that type of power, nukes + deferential slave army + sellswords + professional warlords. GRRM has to engage with this for her - its a humanist tradition and social science fact.

Foucault wrote about how power changes the way we think. Obedience experiments also reveal some interesting things about how people are able to abuse power. Usually you lose empathy and become less concerned with others emotions. You feel entitled to more resources. Entertain less nuance in your perspectives. Act impulsively. Consider less outcomes. It even affects body language, making less eye contact with people you deem beneath you. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

T

 

If somebody is doing any real saving, it's Jon. Protecting the Realm from the true enemy (not the wildlings, stupid Bowen Marsh and co....and haters) is real saving. And with no credit, thats a sacrifice. But Dany has stupid freedmen who go all Mhysa mhysa over her while she thnks she's saving them (they do too).

Jon is not saving anybody.  He basically gave his middle finger to the Wall, the barrier that stands between the living and the dead, just to try and help his sister.  That is not the act of a savior. 

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3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

To the OP,

By everyone, whom do you mean? All the slaves she freed? Some good she did by it. Most died of sickness and war. The rest work for meager wages while they at least had a steady life under former masters. I don't support slavery, just that Dany was lazy after freeing them. Just fantasizing about Daario and moaning and whining about how the freed former slaves were suffering again did nothing to help them.

And reclaiming her mad father's throne isn't so "saving"ish , just being another tyrant by prolonging the war. More dead. And it must not be high on her priority since the whole realm will be overrun by Others. Will she help the Watch with her dragons or be another Cersei like in the abomination? That will decide if she is a real saviour or not. I'm inclined to think not. She thinks Ned and all the Starks to be dogs like the Lannisters. Why would she help the Watch and Jon while all she want's is an Iron throne she never saw? She would, if she really loved the realm she wants, but we'll see, won't we?

If somebody is doing any real saving, it's Jon. Protecting the Realm from the true enemy (not the wildlings, stupid Bowen Marsh and co....and haters) is real saving. And with no credit, thats a sacrifice. But Dany has stupid freedmen who go all Mhysa mhysa over her while she thnks she's saving them (they do too).

Dragons is the answer you are looking for. She will bring dragons against the dead.

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Its a corruption arc, not madness. She's the only one with that type of power, nukes + deferential slave army + sellswords + professional warlords. GRRM has to engage with this for her - its a humanist tradition and social science fact.

Foucault wrote about how power changes the way we think. Obedience experiments also reveal some interesting things about how people are able to abuse power. Usually you lose empathy and become less concerned with others emotions. You feel entitled to more resources. Entertain less nuance in your perspectives. Act impulsively. Consider less outcomes. It even affects body language, making less eye contact with people you deem beneath you. 

Good argument, yet the answer remained unanswered.

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4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

To the OP,

By everyone, whom do you mean? All the slaves she freed? Some good she did by it. Most died of sickness and war. The rest work for meager wages while they at least had a steady life under former masters. I don't support slavery, 

 

But, you make the same excuse for it that slave masters have always made. If people did "have a steady life" as slaves, nobody would ever have to use violence to keep slaves in line.  That's not true either in canon, or in real life.

 

Edited by SeanF

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21 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Many topics were talking about Daenerys' arc, and her final fate. Well, she's not only growing up, but already began to fall.

My theory suggests that yes, she will begin her journey heading to madness, but someone will help her out of her "mental" sickness. 

But who? Jon, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, Aegon? Maybe Bran as Bloodraven's apprentice? Or these are the exact people that will push her into madness?

I'd like some more suggestions about this.

The only evidence for madness is her hallucinating at the end of ADWD. but I think that's more down to sunstroke and eating poisonous berries.

One can point to prophetic dreams and visions as evidence of madness, but magic is a reality in this world.

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1 hour ago, HerblYY said:

Good argument, yet the answer remained unanswered.

A corruption arc is just that, there's no getting off or someone to stop it.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Its a corruption arc, not madness.

Nah, its madness.

.

If she was not her father's daughter, who was she?

.

Thats why she has visions like John Fiddler on the roof, or has controversial theories about what fire actually does

.

You are my queen, my sword is yours, but do not ask me to stand aside as you climb on Drogo's pyre. I will not watch you burn."

"Is that what you fear?"

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's the only one with that type of power, nukes + deferential slave army + sellswords + professional warlords.

Well, aside from Jon the warg with his professor X like powers, or Bran with his Dr Manhattan thing going, plus Arya and her whole array of magic movements. 

Yes, Dany got nukes. But it aint the 40s anymore. Lots of people got em, winter is coming. You can find WMDs in the bottom of a cereal box these days.

 

To the op. Nobody? Dany will be as convinced of the dragons sanity as she was when she watched 163 men get crucified

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27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, Dany got nukes. But it aint the 40s anymore. Lots of people got em, winter is coming. You can find WMDs in the bottom of a cereal box these days.

Huh? I'm not following you here. 

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah, its madness.

What definition of madness are you using? 

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@Hugorfonics, sorry, but you can’t really compare skinchanging into fauna and/or flora w/ fire-breathing dragons that can melt stone and burn whole cities to the ground. That said, I like the dragons and I hope they all make it, but w/o being under anyone or controlled or whatever. Just free in the wild, as it were. 

To the op, why would Dany need to be saved by anyone? I also don’t think she’s going mad. And I will add that Planetos isn’t 21st century Earth, there are no shrinks nor Big Pharma, so if someone goes mad there won’t be anyone there to psychoanalyse them or give them the proper pills. 

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Well I think Dany is very much her father's daughter. Aerys was described as very charming and generous in his youth but quick to anger and prone to drastic mood swings . That sounds exactly like Dany to me. As Aerys got older, his paranoia and suspicion about everyone increased, especially after his captivity in Duskendale. I half wonder if Dany is likely to suffer such a traumatic event that will push her over the edge. Perhaps even a time of captivity with the Dothraki again. Dany is certainly getting suspicious about everyone around her because of Quaithe's prophecies.

Regardless to the OP's question, who will save Dany? I think it's no one. And no, not the Faceless Men. I don't think her story is destined for a happy ending and she's destined to either die a heroine or live long enough to see herself become the villain as the saying goes. 

Edited by Lord Lannister

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I actually like the whole idea of Dany or Jon or even Bran going mad, but Dany has been most set up for this in the Targaryen histories.  Even in Valyria, the Valyrians thought themselves gods.  Jaehaerys himself came up with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism for crying out loud.  This is an entire culture setting itself apart from the rest of the world.   They are Other.   I don't think there is any saving Dany from her genetics--even Aerys had good constructive ideas before he fell victim to his genetics.  (OK, with a little help, but still, King is a tough job).  A really strong trait Dany possesses is supreme decisiveness.  She is not afraid to make a decision and deal with the consequences.   She is a conqueror and reformer and fighter and winner.   She's no wimp on anyone's scale.   However, that brand of decisiveness and sense of doing the right thing is bound to catch up with her in consequences she cannot see.  Dany can't be saved.   To try to save her would be an insult to her strength and sense of rightness.   Madness is not a terrible end for her with all the information we have read about Targaryens.  It's not a bad end for Jon, either.   He just hasn't got the set up yet.    I say enjoy Dany to her absolute fullest without making her an actual god or trying to save her.

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Huh? I'm not following you here. 

The night is dark and full of terror. Danys not special

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What definition of madness are you using? 

The Targaryen kind I suppose. Talking to Quaithe, jumping into pyres. 

Now, for the sake of clarity, Im not fully sold on Aerys insanity, we all know Targs can be crazy 

Quote

But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

I mean burning KL so you can be reborn as a lizard is fucking crazy... But so is walking into fire. Which turned out to be greatness

Quote

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin

So, in conclusion, I guess the definition ill be using is Westeros' public perception. Which is the same perception that Grumkins are in the woodpile

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Hugorfonics, sorry, but you can’t really compare skinchanging into fauna and/or flora w/ fire-breathing dragons that can melt stone and burn whole cities to the ground. 

But they can just skinchange into a dragon, or even into a human

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16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon is not saving anybody.

How convenient to forget the thousands of wildlings (humans, not the true enemy haters) and the whole fucking realm??!! While your precious Dany plays the Game of Thrones (badly), he's saving the damn 7Ks she wants. Remember that.

16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

He basically gave his middle finger to the Wall, the barrier that stands between the living and the dead,

Exactly my point! The thousands of wildlings would have become wights if they are/were left for dead as your poor Bowen Marsh and co. suggested. Why can't you haters accept reality?

Jon is fighting against the Others and wights while Marsh and co. are trying to save their own asses (fearing Tywin's wrath if he learns that the NW helped Stannis who helped the Watch against Mance....not knowing Tywin is dead)

16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

just to try and help his sister.

OH NOT AGAIN!!! I'm tired of explaing this again and again (and I'm new to the forum compared to the elders), so let me ask you a question...or three.

Was the Realm endangered by Jon's actions to save the girl he thought was his sister? The answer is NOOOOOOOOO. If you say yes, why?

Did he break any vows by sending Mance to retrieve his sister? NOOOO again. I'll explain this one (not so obvious as the last). Mance is/was like a dog in a leash (the damn ruby). He's an expendable asset of sorts. If he tries something to escape, Melisandre whacks him, like how Amanda Waller does to Slipknot in Suicide squad. So he'll face the onsequences of his desertion after more important things at hand are done. Like fighting the Others. No one knows more about them than Mance according to the text. And Jon trusted him enough to send him after farya/Jeyne (and the trust wasn't broken as we see, so Jon was right)

16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

That is not the act of a savior. 

Rant on

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14 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Dragons is the answer you are looking for. She will bring dragons against the dead.

Sorry. Not the answer I was looking for. The question was "Would she take her dragons and defend the realm at the Wall by helping the NW against the Others....or be just another tyrant conqueror by doing an abomination Cersei and fight for the IT instead, pushing the war further and increasing the dead????"

Gotcha?

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