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Alyn Oakenfist

Who will be King by the end? And what will king mean?

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My guess would be Jon Snow as king by the end in a burgeoning constitutional monarchy with some minimal representation for the smallfolk. Yours?

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47 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

would be Jon Snow as king

But the theme will be of fragmentation, I believe. Back into 7Ks. IT melted. Painted Table broken like Round Table of Arthurian legends.

Wanting to be King/Queen by fighting wars is hypocrisy when the war to be fought is against the true enemy (Others, who may not be the true enemy in the end) to protect the lands and men they want to rule.

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1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

But the theme will be of fragmentation, I believe. Back into 7Ks.

That would be a dreadful idea, leading to eternal war

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12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That would be a dreadful idea, leading to eternal war

After the Others attack (and after they are defeated or revealed to not be evil. In the second case, true evil may be COTF and BR seeking vengeance and orchestrating chaos) and Wall's purpose reinforced, heros in that conflict will have support, not some old bloodline. Actions will have meaning, not birth status. Gendry may be the Baratheon Storm king if he does great deeds and wins people support like Loras. (for example). 

The 7Ks will have own kings but may have some sort of pseudo democratic alliance. No more wars pointlessly or conquest (5kings war and Others battle will ensure this). Defined boundaries. etc. coming together when humanity threatened. Medieval UN.

Dany fans will disagree coz they want their precious exiled queen to claim her birthright (like she wants to and which was just for 300 yrs compared to the 1000s other houses ). But if she prolongs the war, plays the game and not defends the Realm using her nukes (3 kids), she will be just another tyrant for power, like Cersei or Euron.

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2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

The 7Ks will have own kings but may have some sort of pseudo democratic alliance. No more wars pointlessly or conquest (5kings war and Others battle will ensure this). Defined boundaries. etc. coming together when humanity threatened. Medieval UN.

Dany fans will disagree coz they want their precious exiled queen to claim her birthright (like she wants to and which was just for 300 yrs compared to the 1000s other houses ). But if she prolongs the war, plays the game and not defends the Realm using her nukes (3 kids), she will be just another tyrant for power, like Cersei or Euron.

So a lot of Dany fans are delusional, especially in not realizing that Dany while probably a pretty good enlightened despot would leave an absolutist monarchy in her wake, something which history thought us that while better then feudalism is still pretty shit.

However, a medieval UN/EU is even more delusional. The shell shock of the Long Night and the Wot5K would ensure peace for a time, sure, but as soon as a new generation comes along it would devolve into Total War: Westeros. So I don't think a dissolved Westeros is the solution, given the history and the trend fAegon, the Faith, Dany and Jon are going on, I'm guessing monarchy but with some noble and popular oversight, promising an eventual transition to a full democracy like in the UK

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37 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

However, a medieval UN/EU is even more delusional.

I said that, but never said they were going to have allegedly democratic elections after campaigns, bribes and debates. Monarchy only, but like you said, constitutional (like in Naboo from Star wars) with 7Ks. Like Atlantis and other 6 from DCEU's Aquaman. With laws

40 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The shell shock of the Long Night and the Wot5K would ensure peace for a time, sure, but as soon as a new generation comes along it would devolve into Total War: Westeros. So I don't think a dissolved Westeros is the solution, given the history and the trend fAegon, the Faith, Dany and Jon are going on,

Fair enough, but whee will people's loyalties lie? In a 300yr old throne, or with their ethnic leaders. And if u've read till now, u'll see im not suggesting total dissolution. 

42 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

'm guessing monarchy but with some noble and popular oversight, promising an eventual transition to a full democracy like in the UK

Exactly! , but 7Ks my opinion. How UK (Britain)had lot of competing houses.

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Bran may be the Augustus of ASOIAF. 

We tend to apply the same parameters to things that overall look/are the same and go under the same category, but the empire that this 19 years old guy basically invented, technically speaking, worked differently than we generally think.

First of all and as weird as it may sound, it was called empire (giving a new meaning to an exiting office/power in Rome) vs the idea of monarchy (that Romans loathed). For instance his propaganda vs Marc Anthony and Cleopatra, was also rooted on the conflict republic vs monarchy.

However, he did that accumulating elected and with terms offices of the (former) republic into his persona and permanently.

Particularly that of the Tribune of the Plebs/People (in ASOIAF terms that would be a sort of smallfolk representative) that served as a balance to the power of the Senate noble families and that of the Pontifex Maximus, the highest religious office.

And in this empire, succession never became officially (and most of the times wasn't) a matter of bloodline.
Same goes with the holy empire in the middle ages - the office remained an elected one for a long time - and to these days with the Papacy (that is also a head of State beside being - litterally - the christian evolution of the pontifex maximus office).

So,  young Bran - the 3EC, therefore the guy with a strongest connection with the Gods - might be chosen to rule in the interest of the smallfolk to balance the power of the noble families (that maybe will get their house of representatives) in a new Kingdom in which that of the King/Queen head of state will become an elected office. 

And now that I really think about it, if the comparison somehow works:

Jon = Caesar, the guy who never became king and was murdered by peers too attached to tradition. If so, Bowen Marsh is our Brutus and the conspirators are going to flee. Possibly to the Nightfort. 

Bran = Augustus, the young man nobody pays attention to. Cousin/Half brother of Jon instead of nephew of Caesar.

Daenerys and Young Griff = Cleopatra (even more) and Marc Anthony

Tyrion may be our Cicero. The experienced, eloquent man who gave power to Augustus underestimating and by a long shot the youngest one.

Edited by lalt

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I suspect that only person who would be strong enough to rule all 7 kingdoms would be Dany. So if she and all her dragons would die there would not be anyone who would gain enough support to rule united Westeros. For instance the Faith almost certainly would not accept any king who would not be follower of 7. 

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It will be Bran as it was in the series. 

2 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The only people who will accept Jon Snow are the Wildlings.  There won't be any king of Westeros in the end.  But there will be a monarch who will rule in the end.  Queen Daenerys Targaryen. 

 

30 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that only person who would be strong enough to rule all 7 kingdoms would be Dany. So if she and all her dragons would die there would not be anyone who would gain enough support to rule united Westeros. For instance the Faith almost certainly would not accept any king who would not be follower of 7. 

Let's just say that Dany wouldn't be a very good queen, I'm her big fan, but the truth is that even she doesn't like it, she gets bored in Meereen and does things just out of obligation, in case Dany stays alive in the end let flying around the world with her dragon that she will be happier than as a queen, when she was a child she thought how good it would be to be a sailor because she loved the freedom of the sea, the happiest period of her life was to ride a horse barefoot by the Dothraki sea, she feels complete flying on Drogon's back, Dany was not born to be locked in a city like a queen, she doesn't like it and doesn't do the best job.

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I am not sure who will be KIng/Queen at the end but I am pretty sure it will not be Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen.  Both are just too obvious/too cliche.

I also find this idea of some burgeoning pseudo constitutional monarchy forming to be far fetched and silly

So that being said the esteemed Lord Walder Frey will outlive them all and be crowned King in the end.  :P

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I do not believe it will be Jon Snow.  He was very bad at leading and ruling at the wall.  He would not be able to handle a kingdom if he could not even manage the wall.  The only person who really is getting the right preparation and who also has the right attitude is Daenerys Targaryen.  All the other contenders are merely serving his or her own family.  

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I think that Jon will be King, and that the series will end with his and Dany's wedding held at the new capital after King's Landing will burn. In my opinion there's a lot of parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible and The Lord of the Rings <- both of those books ended with a wedding. In the Bible Messiah married with his Bride, the Bride of the Lamb (Church?), and in LOTR Aragorn married with Arwen. So Jon and Dany will rule together, but they won't change any major customs of 7K, there will be no democracy, no equality between nobles and smallfolk, everything will stay exactly as it was during reign of other Targaryen monarchs. The North won't separate from the rest of 7K, it won't become independent. Maybe after the Others will be defeated and there will be no need for The Wall, all the wildlings and the Lands of Always Winter on the far north of Westeros, will join 7K as the 8th Kingdom.

Edited by Megorova

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I'm sorry for Aegon/Dany fans, but to me for democracy to work ther eshouldn't be any Targaryens left, or else it would be easy for them and their descendants to 'campaign' in the bases of 'I have the right blood'. That doesn't mean Dany would die tho, as she likely can't have children.

I think that to follow the "war to end all wars" thingy we need people to take measures against war (which is what should have happened after Robert's Rebelion). In my opinion this would take the form of a life-long term, election based system, inspired on the kingsmoot, the NW and the Freefolk, with bonus points if Dornish law becomes Westerosi Law.

Also, I said this before I think, but I always thought splitting The Seven Kingdoms was a bad idea, the only caveat being that no Valiryan should rule, as it turns Westeros to a colony rather than a country in which the land is one.

 

 

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Bran and Dany will be engaged by way of the three eyed crow and Quiathe. 

Arya and Aegon VI will be sent off in exile to the west. 

Sansa and Young Griff will be killed. 

Rickon will be dead.

Jon and Melisandre will be vanquished. 

Of the three couples, Bran and Dany will end up on top. 

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My personal feeling is that there will be no king per say, I see Jon dieing in battle as most likely, and I have always imagined that Dani would die in childbirth( i have various reasons for both of these, but to be honest I do not want to derail your thread with a wall of text of my own personal headcanon, am willing to discuss in slightly more detail if any one is interested.) Leaving some sort of Lord protectorate situation....

Most likely involving Tryrion and Sansa, whos previous legal marriage will become very politically convenient i suspect. 

Edit....i do not mean to imply that Jon is definitely the father of said baby, its possible but not definite, I simply think that Danerys will have a real child eventually, but it will cost her everything she fought for, her kingdom and her life.

Edited by Back door hodor

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22 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

My guess would be Jon Snow as king by the end in a burgeoning constitutional monarchy with some minimal representation for the smallfolk. Yours?

 

The obvious perfect choice to lead Westeros out of the darkness and into the Light is Daenerys 

May god help Westeros if Jon ever becomes king.  Even divine help may not be enough to save the realm from him.

Edited by Moiraine Sedai

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Almost everyone dies in the new Long Night, only the Wildlings and a few other scattered peoples deep underground survive.  Civilization has to be rebuilt from scratch. 

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I personally would be very disappointed and irritated if the story ended up in the exact same place where it began, with a monarch (any monarch) on the Iron Throne in Kings Landing, lording it over 7 kingdoms. Especially if it's implied that the whole sturm and drang will just start up again and replay itself, because history is circular blah blah blah.

That would be cheap, lazy writing in my opinion.

As far as where/how the story will end up, as long as it is in a place different from where/how it began, I'll be satisfied.

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3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I personally would be very disappointed and irritated if the story ended up in the exact same place where it began, with a monarch (any monarch) on the Iron Throne in Kings Landing, lording it over 7 kingdoms. Especially if it's implied that the whole sturm and drang will just start up again and replay itself, because history is circular blah blah blah.

That would be cheap, lazy writing in my opinion.

As far as where/how the story will end up, as long as it is in a place different from where/how it began, I'll be satisfied.

Yeah, my logic too, and from feudalism you can only really go one of 2 ways, constitutional monarchy or absolutism, and I hope GRRM will give us constitutional monarchy as it's the better alternative

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