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Mark O'Kane

How to win WOT5K (Renly)

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6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

You keep saying Renly would never act so dishonorably, but... yeah, he would. Declaring himself King is itself incredibly dishonorable. The line of succesion matters, as Robb points out at the end of AGoT. 

And I stand by what I said in my first comment. Robb is currently headed towards the Westerlands, and Tywin will soon follow, abandoning Harrenhal. With Kings Landing so vulnerable, Stannis taking the city is, and in the story was, a very, very real possibility. If the Baratheon brothers had joined together and worked as a team, with Stannis being the strategist and Renly being the political player, they might have been hard to stop. But Renly is a self-absorbed fool and Stannis is... Stannis.

There's a difference between taking the crown your brother claims and betraying multiple people. Renly cares about how people see him. He wants to be beloved. That wouldn't change if he took the crown from Stannis/Joffrey, as no one loves either of them. But attacking people during peace talks, attacking your allies in the rear for no reason and kinslaying would not go well with anyone.

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On 1/5/2021 at 6:13 AM, Mark O'Kane said:

me blowing a trumpet which causes the Raimblw Guard to jump from the ramparts and arrange themselves in Rainbow order behind me before they pose and them rush at Stannis' men, defeating them with their skill.

Nothing personnel, Stannis.

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Posted (edited)

Attacking Robb from behind is crucial because it teaches the people of KL that Renly would never let the smallfolk suffer as remember the people of KL will know about Robb's Western campaign and he is also teaching all potential rebellious lords that he does not suffer other people claiming to be king and that he will not be disrespected. It was the only way into KL without harming team smallfolk.

Also he is not personally slaying Stannis so how exactly is this kinslaying? I find it hard to believe Loras couldn't pull off an easy assassination of Stannis as he is the finest lance on Planetos? Stannis would only bring a small amount of guards who aren't exactly gonna wamt to get revenge for him as incase anyone forgot he is stated by Cressen to not be loved. 

Didn't think people would not know stuff like this?

Edited by Mark O'Kane
Forgot

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1 hour ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Attacking Robb from behind is crucial because it teaches the people of KL that Renly would never let the smallfolk suffer as remember the people of KL will know about Robb's Western campaign

The smallfolk Renly's men killed? The smallfolk everyone would know Renly's men killed, because he let every witness live?

Also, that's not how the people would read that situation, all everyone would get from that would be that Renly is dishonorable and not t be trusted, nothing else. And after Renly has already betrayed him and sullied his name, Robb would have no reason to trust him in the first place.

 

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and he is also teaching all potential rebellious lords that he does not suffer other people claiming to be king and that he will not be disrespected. It was the only way into KL without harming team smallfolk.

That's when you break character. Renly want's to emulate Robert, so he's not gonna do that. He's more likely to forgive his beaten foes in order to be beloved.

 

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Also he is not personally slaying Stannis so how exactly is this kinslaying?

Many would consider giving the order for his death a form of kinslaying. And anyhow, even if it's not technically kinslasying, ordering the murder of your own brother doesn't make you look good. And that's the most important thing for him.

 

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I find it hard to believe Loras couldn't pull off an easy assassination of Stannis as he is the finest lance on Planetos?

Stannis would likely have guards with him.

 

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Stannis would only bring a small amount of guards

 Why? Because you control him too?

 

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who aren't exactly gonna wamt to get revenge for him as incase anyone forgot he is stated by Cressen to not be loved.

But they are his men nonetheless. And they do think of him as some sort of religious savior. They would defend him, and avenge him.

 

Also, how are you going to prevent Melissandre from seeing """Renly's""" betrayal in her flames?

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Stannis only brings a small number of guards so he can move faster as larger forces attract too much attention. 

I already knew about Melisandre and have the chains that dampen magical abilities which I obtained from the Citadel. They are probably made from silver which is known to hurt magical beings and Iron which is toxic to supernatural creatures and possibly meteor ore like from what Dawn is made of. 

 

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4 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Stannis only brings a small number of guards so he can move faster as larger forces attract too much attention. 

How do you know that would happen? He didn't bring a small number of guards to the negotiations in ACOK.

 

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I already knew about Melisandre

How do you know Renly knew? Even if he heard rumors, did he buy them?

 

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and have the chains that dampen magical abilities which I obtained from the Citadel. They are probably made from silver which is known to hurt magical beings and Iron which is toxic to supernatural creatures and possibly meteor ore like from what Dawn is made of. 

Do this chains exist? How do you know? Does Renly know about them? How do you know? Would the people in Oldtown just give them to him? I think not, or else they would have. 

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Stannis only brings Melisandre to treat with Renly at Storm's End in OTL and he doesn't exactly need guards because he thinks Renly is giving him his army. Renly knows about politics enough to know that Stannis would never suspect this as Stannis would never kinslay....

Stannis only had 5000 in ACOK but he leaves them at outside Storms End to speak with Renly. 

Yes Renly bought the rumours using Mace Tyrells coin and he paid for info on how to capture her by contacting other people who know about magic... 

Yes the chains exists and Renly learns about them from Lord Hightower as he rules Oldtown and knows about stuff like this probably. 

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6 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Yes Renly bought the rumours using Mace Tyrells coin

How does he know to buy the rumors? Why does he believe in them? Who does he pay for them? 

 

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and he paid for info on how to capture her by contacting other people who know about magic... 

Whom did he contact? Who knows how to capture her? Is there anything in the texts that suggests this would work?

 

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Yes the chains exists

Do you have any actual reason to think this?

 

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and Renly learns about them from Lord Hightower

How did he know to ask? did he waste even more precious time by traveling to Oldtown to have a chat with Leyton? Leyton never leaves his tower, would he even talk to Renly? Does he even know about this chains?

 

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as he rules Oldtown and knows about stuff like this probably. 

Probably, but not definitely. What if he doesn't? how do you justify Renly doing this then?

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On 1/5/2021 at 7:09 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate, I'm memeing. All jokes aside, you're probably right, Renly should have just zerg rushed KL and easily dealt with everyone from there

I agree. I can't blame Renly for not knowing about Melisandre's Magical Assassin Shadow Babies® but I can blame Renly for bothering going back to Storm's End just to deal with Stannis' rabble rather than just marching on King's Landing.

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I believe Renly was so overconfident he lost some potential allies. At first he should ally with Stannis and accept his terms. Them deal with Lannisters, make an arrangement with Starks and Greyjoys and then challenge Stannis. In the meantime he should make some sons with Margary no matter the way.

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2 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I believe Renly was so overconfident he lost some potential allies. At first he should ally with Stannis and accept his terms. Them deal with Lannisters, make an arrangement with Starks and Greyjoys and then challenge Stannis. In the meantime he should make some sons with Margary no matter the way.

If he allies with Stannis he loses the Tyrells and his kingship. There's literally no food reason for him to bend the knee to Stannis

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5 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

In the meantime he should make some sons with Margary no matter the way

IVF :devil:

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3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If he allies with Stannis he loses the Tyrells and his kingship. There's literally no food reason for him to bend the knee to Stannis

There's literally no reason for Renly to declare himself King, other than his own ego. He should have bent the knee to his older brother. 

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4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There's literally no reason for Renly to declare himself King, other than his own ego. He should have bent the knee to his older brother. 

Stormlands has very weak economy and can support very few cavalry units. So in theory idea about having support of kingdom with huge economy and large army  including more heavy cavalry than any 2 (3 if Westerlands is not included) other kingdoms was sound. So by killing Renly Stannis wiped out any chance that real member of house Baratheon would sit on IT.  

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9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There's literally no reason for Renly to declare himself King, other than his own ego. He should have bent the knee to his older brother. 

His older brother doesn't have the power or the allies to win the Throne, if Renly doesn't ally with the Tyrells the Lannisters would. And soon enough, Renly is murdered, the Martells go to Joff and Stannis is crushed.

Renly already explains why he took the crown.

 

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“On the night of Robert’s death, I offered your husband a hundred swords and urged him to take Joffrey into his power. Had he listened, he would be regent today, and there would have been no need for me to claim the throne.” “Ned refused you.” She did not have to be told. “He had sworn to protect Robert’s children,” Renly said. “I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

 

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Exactly. No doubt he enjoyed it, but proclaiming himself kings was Renly's moral obligation.

Otherwise, the realm would be left between the sadistic bully or the fanatic iconoclast who wanted to impose his foreign religion.

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

His older brother doesn't have the power or the allies to win the Throne, if Renly doesn't ally with the Tyrells the Lannisters would. And soon enough, Renly is murdered, the Martells go to Joff and Stannis is crushed.

Renly already explains why he took the crown.

 

 

Nope. The reason Stannis doesn't have the power or allies to take the throne is because... Renly took them for himself. Say what you will. Even with Renly having to be dealt with, Stannis would have taken Kings Landing if Tywin hadn't arrived at the exact right moment. So this notion that the Stormlands isn't powerful enough to win the Iron Throne just doesn't hold much water.

Renly's "explanation" for why he "needed" to take the crown is, plainly put, nonsense. He tries to act as if the crown was inflicted upon him, when in reality, he just took it for himself. He took the crown because he wanted it, not because it was his "moral obligation." This is feudalism, not democracy. Renly's moral and legal obligation is to bend the knee to his older brother, join the power of Storms End to Stannis's cause, and help take Kings Landing away from the illegitimate Lannister regime.

They might lose the Tyrells temporarily, but at this point, the Tyrells have nowhere else to go. They are primarily interested in being on the winning side, whoever that happens to be. If a Stannis/Renly partnership takes Kings Landing, simply put, that looks like the winning side. It might have worked out that way too, since Stannis told Renly he would be named heir until a son was born to Stannis. So the Tyrells might still be tempted to join the King's peace again and marry Margeary, this time to an heir to the throne rather than a usurper.

Renly should have taken Stannis's offer. He would have been King later rather than never.

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. The reason Stannis doesn't have the power or allies to take the throne is because... Renly took them for himself

  1. It was Robert who granted Renly Storm's End.
  2. Renly did not force Stannis to behave like a grumpy old man.

 

Even without the Reach, Stormlands or Westernlands.  There are still six regions that do not want Stannis as King, yet that doesn't matter because Stannis never bothered to win them over anyway because he's too entitled to even try.

Stannis could have reached to Robb, to Lysa, to Balon, to  Doran... He doesn't want to bee seen as beggar, even thos he needs them badly, so he doesn't. The Stormlords are bound to follow a Baratheon, Renly is their lord, he can't take for himself something that was always his.

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Say what you will. Even with Renly having to be dealt with, Stannis would have taken Kings Landing if Tywin hadn't arrived at the exact right moment. So this notion that the Stormlands isn't powerful enough to win the Iron Throne just doesn't hold much water.

Is this a race?? Stannis would have taken King's Landing... And would have lost it the minute Tywin and/ or the Tyrells stormed it or laid siege to it. 

But since we're doing ifs, if Tywin stays in Harrenhall instead of going west, Stannis is smashed either way. The Stormlords don't have the manpower to go toe to toe against Tywin and the City's defenses.

Win the Iron Throne as in getting it and keeping it.    Ofc that if no one opposes Srannis, he can very much take the city just with the Crownlands foces, i doubt that the Crownlands are by themselves enough to keep the the throne.

Can you tell me the rationale behind Stannis getting King's Landing when he still has enemies far more powerful than him that want him dead?? Didn't the Dance of the Dragons teach all of us the valuable lesson that putting your ass on the Throne is not by any means enough??

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

He tries to act as if the crown was inflicted upon him,

At no point he tries to act as if.  He plainly explains that either he takes the throne or the Lannisters kill him. Given that Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin expressed at one point or another their intentions to deal with him permanently, I'd say he has a reason to be concerned.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

when in reality, he just took it for himself. He took the crown because he wanted it, not because it was his "moral obligation."

What moral obligation?? He literally says that's survival what's moving him.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Renly's moral and legal obligation is to bend the knee to his older brother, join the power of Storms End to Stannis's cause, and help take Kings Landing away from the illegitimate Lannister regime.

Well, not really. His moral and legal obligation is to bend the knee to Joffrey, you know Robert's acknowledged son and heir, and let him pass judgement on him for existing. If pardoned his duty was to join his power to Tywin and crush his traitorous brother.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

They might lose the Tyrells temporarily, but at this point, the Tyrells have nowhere else to go.

Isn't Joffrey a place to go?? I mean. he's the one on the throne.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

They are primarily interested in being on the winning side, whoever that happens to be.

Whomever the Tyrells join becomes almost automatically the winning side. That's a non argument. Mace Tyrell wanted his grandson to be King, that's a powerful motivator to join the Lannisters.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

If a Stannis/Renly partnership takes Kings Landing, simply put, that looks like the winning side.

But that's not true. Just like Joffrey did not look like the winning side for holding King's Landing. 

May i remind you that at that point, the Martells had already pledged allegiance to Joffrey?? Who do you think actually looks like the winning side??

Neither Rhaenrya nor Aegon 2 looked like the winning side when they wrestled for the Throne, no matter who sat on the Throne, there were still enemies on the field who wanted to kill one of the other. Only after those enemies lost their capacity to keep the fight on or lost key leaders could Aegon 3 rest easily on the throne-

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

It might have worked out that way too, since Stannis told Renly he would be named heir until a son was born to Stannis.

Just as Stannis was heir until a son of Robert was born. Unless everyone in Westeros share the absur fandom's d belief that Stannis would never father a son,  I don't know how's that any reassuring. And since Petyr was already at Bitterbridge by that point...

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

So the Tyrells might still be tempted to join the King's peace again and marry Margeary, this time to an heir to the throne rather than a usurper.

No they wouldn't. The Tyrells can't stomach the Florents, the Florents still want Highgarden. even if Joffrey is killed. Tommen is still on the loose, he would be named King -> King>Heir presumptive.

 His age also means that the Tyrells would have had far more power controlling or sharing the control of a regency. The minute Renly dies, the Lannisters try and win their allegiance... why do you believe they would not do it thi time?

 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Renly should have taken Stannis's offer. He would have been King later rather than never.

Stannis should have taken Renly's offer, he would have been granted Storm's End and kept Dragonstone. Instead of you know, betraying both his brothers, murdering one of them.  murdering his daughter, dooming his House and becoming an ice zombie.... and never being King too.

Edited by frenin

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On 1/22/2021 at 12:05 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. The reason Stannis doesn't have the power or allies to take the throne is because... Renly took them for himself. Say what you will. Even with Renly having to be dealt with, Stannis would have taken Kings Landing if Tywin hadn't arrived at the exact right moment. So this notion that the Stormlands isn't powerful enough to win the Iron Throne just doesn't hold much water.

Renly's "explanation" for why he "needed" to take the crown is, plainly put, nonsense. He tries to act as if the crown was inflicted upon him, when in reality, he just took it for himself. He took the crown because he wanted it, not because it was his "moral obligation." This is feudalism, not democracy. Renly's moral and legal obligation is to bend the knee to his older brother, join the power of Storms End to Stannis's cause, and help take Kings Landing away from the illegitimate Lannister regime.

They might lose the Tyrells temporarily, but at this point, the Tyrells have nowhere else to go. They are primarily interested in being on the winning side, whoever that happens to be. If a Stannis/Renly partnership takes Kings Landing, simply put, that looks like the winning side. It might have worked out that way too, since Stannis told Renly he would be named heir until a son was born to Stannis. So the Tyrells might still be tempted to join the King's peace again and marry Margeary, this time to an heir to the throne rather than a usurper.

Renly should have taken Stannis's offer. He would have been King later rather than never.

Why would they lose the Tyrells?

If Renly had taken Stannis' offer (which he should've taken), Margaery would have been queen after Selyse and the mother of the king after Renly.

And even if Stannis had been successful in taking King's Landing, he still would've had to hold it against not only the Lannisters but the Tyrells and the Martells.

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why would they lose the Tyrells?

If Renly had taken Stannis' offer (which he should've taken), Margaery would have been queen after Selyse and the mother of the king after Renly.

And even if Stannis had been successful in taking King's Landing, he still would've had to hold it against not only the Lannisters but the Tyrells and the Martells.

I was giving @frenin the benefit of the doubt in assuming the Tyrells would flip if Renly had joined Stannis. Probably that wouldn't be the case for exactly the reason you gave, namely Renly's marriage to Margeary. The Tyrells eventually get into the royal family either way.

If Stannis had taken Kings Landing, it would constitute a fatal blow to House Lannister, since there is basically no chance he would have allowed Joffrey, Tommen and Cersei to live. Tywin might attack Kings Landing, but could he defeat a Stannis/Renly union? I believe not. He would also need to continue dealing with Robb Stark, so the Lannisters would be fighting on two fronts and losing badly on both.

The Martells are deeply cautious, and the Tyrells are supremely opportunistic. Why would the one family fight Stannis and Renly on behalf of the Lannisters? And why would the Tyrells fight what would look like the winning side? I think a Stannis/Renly alliance would have made a formidable force without the Tyrells, and a near invincible one with them. Unfortunately the brothers were too different, and too much alike.

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