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The Return of Jon Snow

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2021 at 5:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Jon will be treated like a wight because he will be a wight.  He will come back with one mission in mind, to find and save Arya.  

He has to escape Castle Black to get to Farya.  The black brothers and the wildlings will freak if they see him walking. He won't make it three steps before they burn him.

Edited by Moiraine Sedai

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He has to escape Castle Black to get to Farya.  The black brothers and the wildlings will freak if they see him walking. He won't make it three steps before they burn him.

Then the point of reviving him would be?

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On 3/9/2021 at 5:22 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Jon will be treated like a wight because he will be a wight.  He will come back with one mission in mind, to find and save Arya.  

This too is what I predict. Jon will never give up on Arya.  Even death won’t keep them apart.  His animated body and Ghost will travel to Winterfell to look for Arya Stark. Jon will be even more savage.  He could do more damage to the NW if they try to stop him.  

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"Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever. That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character... Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing... Death is a difficult thing. The character moves further away from his old life. The rest is the sense of purpose that brings Beric back, the mission he hasn't fulfilled yet ... My characters returning from the dead experience worse than wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspects of the soul have changed or transformed and have lost something ... One of the characters who has repeatedly returned from death is the Lightning Lord Beric Dondarrion. He loses a little more with each resurrection. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He's sent on a mission to do something, and it's as if this is what he hugs him. He forgets other things, forgets who he is or where he lives. He forgot about the woman he had once gotten married to. Every time he comes back from death some parts of his humanity disappear, but he remembers his duty. His body is moving away from him, but this one thing, this purpose he has, is part of what animates him and returns him from death. I think you see echoes of that in some of the other characters returning from the dead. " - GRRM

We can make predictions about Jon by looking at these explanations of GRRM.

After Jon returns to his human body, he will not be no doubt be the same Jon, but I don't expect a 180-degree transformation. As a result, a completely opposite personality to the old Jon makes the new Jon completely alien to the reader and causes us to feel odd. 

Jon's experience of death is a bit like Cat. Both were betrayed from their point of view and suffered from not being able to protect their loved ones. Death and such a traumatic death will naturally make Jon have a more brutal and darker personality(I believe he'll be like old winter kings). For example; The old Jon would not kill the FF children he took as hostages, but probably the new Jon can.

We wouldn't want to bet on what the new Jon will or won't do by looking at the old Jon. 

Tormund often said to Jon in book 5, "Black-hearted black bastard." This is a sign.

Another small detail is the purpose of the deceased to return ... If we look at GRRM's words ... if there is no incomplete job for the deceased person, that person probably won't come back from death. Jon has an unfinished job, Arya. For Beric it was his duty (grrm said) and for Cat it was the revenge of her children / family. For Jon, it's Arya ... So the anchor that will bring Jon back from the dead will be about her love for Arya and desire to rescue her and to protect her.

This "unfinished jop" issue is a nice detail, because if you pay attention, it fits with ghost myths. As far as I know, there are stories in Western culture where people with unfinished jobs come back as ghosts, at least in popular stories and movies. Actually, I see this in the far east movies as well. I don't know if it is a culture settled there or they imported this myth from the west .. Anyway, it is a story that is generally used today.

Ghosts are usually spirits seeking revenge (Cat) or spirits who cannot leave their loved ones and want to help (Jon).

GRRM wrote a ghost myth. Jon's wolf's name is Ghost. :D

I don't think Jon will return as the fire or ice wight either. I think he will return thanks to Ghost and the magic within himself, and of course the magic in the wall will be useful (Melisandre said that the spells she made while she was here were stronger). Jon is both ice and fire because of his parents. He needs to preserve this feature. If he is resurrected by one of the two forces then he cannot be both and Jon's parental twist will be meaningless. (If Bran is to be king, for Jon this blood tie could only mean for balance in the next war.) So Jon will be resurrected by his warg power, with the old northern powers ...

There are lots of people who will see Jon die and resurrect. Apart from members of the NW and FF, there are also northern lords there; Mountain Lords, like Flint. 

When they asked GRRM why Beric's crew was changed their religion, he answered: "Because they saw R'hllor resurrect a dead person, and I would have believed it if I had seen it too." Remember the reaction Arya gave when she witnessed this, she didn't actually react badly.

Wargs are being killed south of The Wall, that's what Haggon said. Jojen also said that people would look badly. Despite this, everyone did nothing, even though they knew Jon was a warg.

Certainly, these things are a little bit luck, a little bit related to the mental construction of that society. Since we are reading a fictional story, in this case it's all about what GRRM wants. 

People will be afraid. They'll see Jon comes back from the dead. This is both something to fear and something to admire. You wouldn't try again to kill someone who died but didn't stay dead. Because you start to see him as immortal. You are afraid of him In that case, you want to obey such a person, because he is someone to be afraid of. 

On the other hand, immortality is the desire of many people, people generally fear death. Here is someone who has conquered death. Such a person is admired. The Mountain Lords are not there for fun, Jon never believed in their reason for coming. I think they were sent by Manderly and Reed. After all, Jon is Robb's heir. They came to watch their king. This new situation of Jon also means a stronger glimmer of hope for the north. The Starks were nearly extinct, there are no men who could have children except Jon and Rickon. Jon is an adult, Rickon and Bran are a child. Winter is coming, and a winter king is needed to lead north at such a time. Jon is someone who can fulfill this need. A Stark returning from the dead! A wolf that won't stay dead even if you kill him!

Jon will be seen as a miraculous, and the people of the north will quickly bond around him. What is the meaning of the name Jon? Gift from God. We writers give names that reflect the personality or arc of the characters. We do not give names that do not serve a purpose.

Of course there will be problems, everything will not be perfect, but I think the general portrait will be like this. Throughout the 5 books, the Starks were in terrible decline ... GRRM, in his letter "Things will be bad for the Starks before things get better." he said. Now is the time for the Starks to rise again. Bad thing for Stark enemies, winter is coming babe, for all of you!

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Jon will become like Coldhands.  He won't look normal.  I don't think he will be received as a gift from the gods.  He will be seen as a wight raised by the Others.  But I do think he will live long enough to see Arya again and the spark of affection will begin.  

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On 27/02/2021 at 3:33 AM, Lord of Blackhaven said:

FFS. Kids can now legally drink who were born when ASOS was publIshed

Quote

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks...

So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

 

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On 3/13/2021 at 4:54 PM, CamiloRP said:

Then the point of reviving him would be?

To cause more problems for the Nights Watch.  To create drama with Arya.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

To cause more problems for the Nights Watch.  To create drama with Arya.  

 

 

If he 'won't make it three steps' he won't be able to create problems with Arya and won't be a problem for the NW.

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On 2/24/2021 at 2:42 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:
On 2/24/2021 at 2:02 PM, El Guapo said:

As far as Jon is concerned he bores me to death. Nothing more nothing less. and it has nothing to do with the tv show.

Come on, his POVs in ADWD are pretty fun. Bran on the other hand...

Jon's scenes just seem to be arguing with the other commander's. I find Bran's scenes far more interesting. But nothing is as boring as Quentyn Martell.

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On 3/2/2021 at 4:44 AM, Buried Treasure said:

Also, don't dragon eggs usually need a lot of heat to hatch? That was the implication for why Dragonstone was ideal. Or when Dany's three hatched in the funeral pyre.

A fire can be manufactured I suppose, but I doubt this is a plot device Martin will use. It would be a little too "deus ex machina."

Dany's 3 were atypical because the eggs were fossilised, so you can't take those needing a fire as an indication heat is usually required.

The accounts from the short stories etc would indicate that when dragons hatched from fresh clutches of non-fossilised eggs, the eggs were given to Targ relations and no special treatment or heating was done, just waiting to see whether they hatched or not.

Dragons thrived in Dragonstone, and not on the mainland, but that is not the same as needing to be there to hatch at all. And I think it wasn't the heat so much as the volcanic activity - Dragonstone having a similar environment to Valyria pre-doom.

 

Dragon eggs require heat to prevent them from turning into stone, I think. Like, Grand Maester Benifer says that the three stolen eggs might just turn to stone away from the fire pits of Dragonstone. I think in order to hatch stone eggs, you need: Fire and Blood. Fire, Drogo's pyre, Blood was MMD

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On 3/12/2021 at 12:20 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Why?  As an ice wight he would be under the Others' control.  If a wight raised somehow by Bloodraven or Bran (and we have no reason to presume they have these powers) he would presumably be controlled by them.  If he's brought back by Mel (a la Beric) he's still Jon Snow, LC of the NW.

The Others will be the one to raise Jon but his mind will be preserved in his wolf.  He will come back as an ice wight but he will still have free will. 

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Honestly, I'm kind of surprised at the amount of people who think Jon is going to come back as some sort of evil or villainous wight along the lines of LSH or a white walker. Not that that opinion isn't valid, I just believe it very improbable. The differences in resurrection and the situation of death is pretty well defined at this point in the story. He is clearly going the Beric route as he so conveniently has a red priestess hanging around the wall (with noted increased powers) with an obvious fascination in him. Will he be changed into a more brooding, vengeful, and cold person? Yeah, but will he be some villain monster that leads an attack on the north or controls/leads wights? I highly doubt it. Will he become an enemy of the NW and FF? That I doubt, too. He will be definitely be feared and respected (not looking like some undead monster will help as he was only stabbed in the body). Hated by some but they won't have the balls or support to try to kill him again.

His motivation, I think, will fully become the preservation of his family, namely Arya at the immediate moment. His prerogative and sense of duty will turn from his vows with the NW to protecting and preserving the only family he has ever known. Ned and Cat (proper) are gone, and Sansa is hiding in the Vale. Every other Stark still alive loved Jon and thought of him as one of the pack. At the moment the only family Jon knows he has left is Arya (I think). Once he finds out more of his siblings are still alive he will understand he needs to keep the pack alive. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, the characters are going to need a poison apple, in order to kill a Snow Wight.

 

On 3/13/2021 at 12:14 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

He has to escape Castle Black to get to Farya.  The black brothers and the wildlings will freak if they see him walking. He won't make it three steps before they burn him.

I agree, especially if he has blue eyes. It won't matter one iota if he talks.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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On 3/25/2021 at 11:42 AM, Lord Daedrunk said:

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised at the amount of people who think Jon is going to come back as some sort of evil or villainous wight along the lines of LSH or a white walker. Not that that opinion isn't valid, I just believe it very improbable. The differences in resurrection and the situation of death is pretty well defined at this point in the story. He is clearly going the Beric route as he so conveniently has a red priestess hanging around the wall (with noted increased powers) with an obvious fascination in him. Will he be changed into a more brooding, vengeful, and cold person? Yeah, but will he be some villain monster that leads an attack on the north or controls/leads wights? I highly doubt it. Will he become an enemy of the NW and FF? That I doubt, too. He will be definitely be feared and respected (not looking like some undead monster will help as he was only stabbed in the body). Hated by some but they won't have the balls or support to try to kill him again.

His motivation, I think, will fully become the preservation of his family, namely Arya at the immediate moment. His prerogative and sense of duty will turn from his vows with the NW to protecting and preserving the only family he has ever known. Ned and Cat (proper) are gone, and Sansa is hiding in the Vale. Every other Stark still alive loved Jon and thought of him as one of the pack. At the moment the only family Jon knows he has left is Arya (I think). Once he finds out more of his siblings are still alive he will understand he needs to keep the pack alive. 

I agree with this. 
Also, him dying reminds me of Aemon Targaryen “kill the boy, and let the man be born. 

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Posted (edited)

Isn't Jon's immediate unfinished business the Pink Letter?  Besides sticking those who killed him with the pointy end?  He knows that Ramsey doesn't have Arya, but he's been given an ultimatum.   Does he still have to go into the crypts of Winterfell for some reason? Will Bran contact him again through Ghost?  Will the wildlings reject him in his undead state or will they follow him to Winterfell?  Does he have a duty to the NW, now that his watch is ended?  Assuming he is raised immediately or will his soul be separated from his body for some time?

 

Edited by LynnS

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Isn't Jon's immediate unfinished business the Pink Letter? 

Well, if he didn't die, he'll have no immediate business, but recovery. If he died and will be ressurected (I believe in this one), he might jump straight into the business, but I doubt he'll have the mental health to it. Besides, given the situation (I mean the situation of Stannis, Ramsay, and Mance, our three candidates of writing the PL), I think it'll solve itself for now and will remain a thing later to be revealed entirely or something.

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He knows that Ramsey doesn't have Arya

He can only assume Ramsay didn't have Arya when he supposedly wrote that letter. It is cloudy to me, but *Twow spoiler* wasn't Stannis immediately sending news to Jon about 'Arya' and her too?

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

but he's been given an ultimatum.

That depends on whether  Stannis defeats the Boltons and kills, or at least captures Ramsay.

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Does he still have to go into the crypts of Winterfell for some reason?

I might not remember why does he initially have to go there.

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Will Bran contact him again through Ghost? 

Most likely. But when? I assume it'll tske some time, so that he won't find out about his real heritage for a good amiunt of time.

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Will the wildlings reject him in his undead state or will they follow him to Winterfell?

Will they have to follow him to Winterfell? On whether they will accept ressurected Jon or not: I think everyone will at first (see: Jon's parallel with the Night's King), and he'll have to work against it. And that again depends on who will resurrect him. If ,let's say, it'll be Val, then they might, but others not.. If Melisandre, he might gain 'support' from a completely different side (I mean Stannis' men at the Wall).

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Does he have a duty to the NW, now that his watch is ended? 

He might get the chance to decide that, and do so, without being named a deserter.

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Assuming he is raised immediately or will his soul be separated from his body for some time?

They can't let him rot, after all, and and ice cage might not have as good of an effect on his dead body as some suggest. At most 3 days I'd say as the limit.

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I’ve no doubt of his return as a Wight. The watchers will certainly try to stop him as will the wildlings. It’s fear based on what they know. They will use conventional weapons and find it doesn’t work. He will be hard to stop even full of holes. Jon’s probabilities of reaching Winterfell and attacking Bolton supporters are high. More sorrow and destruction will happen because of his strong feelings for Arya.

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