Falcon and The Winter Soldier (spoilers)

[Leofric]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Black Falcon and White Panther could have been a viable alternative title for the show 

I keep finding myself thinking The Falcon and the Snowman before I correct myself.

[RumHam]

I haven't finished the episode yet, but can I just say how nice it was to see Captain America pull out a gun and just shoot someone. I always thought like it's great you can throw a shield hard enough to take someone down someone but wouldn't it be easier to just shoot them? Plus it's like the most American thing you can do! 

[RumHam]

Charging into a hail of bullets was a pretty stupid way for a super soldier to buy time. It's cool that they have HAL9000 guarding Zemo's cell. 

I was trying to figure out where I knew John Walker from, and it's 22 Jump Street. Which is a much better movie than you'd expect. 

Really enjoying the show so far, even though it's been mostly setup. 

So Hydra stole Isaiah's blood while he was in jail and presumably that was the source for the Flag Smasher's powers.Then years later when Howard Stark recreated the super soldier formula they had Bucky steal that, and created the soldiers from Civil War who Zemo killed. But what did they use on Bucky while he was a captive during the events of The First Avenger? Did that spy guy get away with a sample after he killed the doctor? I don't remember. 

[Werthead]

I have to say that the scene where the cops stop Sam was very uncomfortable and very clearly meant to be, and good on Disney for tackling that issue head-on and not dancing around it.

[Leofric]

49 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Charging into a hail of bullets was a pretty stupid way for a super soldier to buy time. It's cool that they have HAL9000 guarding Zemo's cell. 

I was trying to figure out where I knew John Walker from, and it's 22 Jump Street. Which is a much better movie than you'd expect. 

Really enjoying the show so far, even though it's been mostly setup. 

So Hydra stole Isaiah's blood while he was in jail and presumably that was the source for the Flag Smasher's powers.Then years later when Howard Stark recreated the super soldier formula they had Bucky steal that, and created the soldiers from Civil War who Zemo killed. But what did they use on Bucky while he was a captive during the events of The First Avenger? Did that spy guy get away with a sample after he killed the doctor? I don't remember. 

The Hydra agent that killed Dr. Erskine was captured by Steve, but committed suicide.    I assume Bucky may have been the result of Zola building off of Erskine's early work before he fled Germany and perhaps samples of the Red Skull's blood. 

[Jaxom 1974]

4 hours ago, Rhom said:

 

Since I'm not familiar with the deeper Marvel lore, was Isaiah someone with a name in the comics?

Need to see the episode, but Isaiah Bradley was part of a fantastic Cap story, Red, White & Black. He's also the grandfather of the Young Avenger, Patriot...

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Does Walker eventually get the Super Soldier serum?

Never in the comics.  His strength augmentation came from the Power Broker...

[Rhom]

12 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Need to see the episode, but Isaiah Bradley was part of a fantastic Cap story, Red, White & Black. He's also the grandfather of the Young Avenger, Patriot...

Never in the comics.  His strength augmentation came from the Power Broker...

Beware spoilers since you say you have not seen it...

Would seem that Power Broker is handing out Super Soldier in this show.  Flag Smashers stole it from him.

[Jaxom 1974]

31 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Beware spoilers since you say you have not seen it...

Would seem that Power Broker is handing out Super Soldier in this show.  Flag Smashers stole it from him.

I've never let spoilers get in the way of my enjoyment of a show or movie. Sometimes I stay away, sometimes I take a peek.  

[Kalbear]

I would not have thought that Disney would be actually trying to do something a bit more nuanced with AA population and stories in Marvel. That's pretty interesting. Isaiah's story looks very compelling. 

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Karlbear said:

I would not have thought that Disney would be actually trying to do something a bit more nuanced with AA population

 

I mean they made Black Panther which despite being set in an African country is very African American in much of its perspective, and pretty nuanced underneath all the smashy smashy.

[Kalbear]

Just now, polishgenius said:

I mean they made Black Panther which despite being set in an African country is very African American in much of its perspective, and pretty nuanced underneath all the smashy smashy.

Ish? The big difference between BP and this is that BP focused on showing a really positive, cool view of afrofuturism, but it didn't do a whole lot to show the crappiness of the US specifically. This...well, this has gone from shitty loan practices and property to shitty thinly veiled racism to shitty policing, all in the US. 

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

but it didn't do a whole lot to show the crappiness of the US specifically.

 

I guess I get what you're saying that this is about the smaller shittynesses of life in the US now. BP was very much about the historical atrocities of the US and the West and the legacies those have left, though.  But yeah, different approaches.

[Kalbear]

Just now, polishgenius said:

I guess I get what you're saying that this is about the smaller shittynesses of life in the US now. BP was very much about the historical atrocities of the US and the West and the legacies those have left, though.  But yeah, different approaches.

Right - but it was in general about the overall effect of colonialism - and we also didn't see a whole lot of how bad that was, only that Killmonger's dad wanted to fight against it. Also, Killmonger was explicitly the antagonist - though him being Michael B Jordan and also being 100% right helped make that sympathetic.

We hear about it being an issue, and the viewer can make a connection between Wakanda, which didn't get fucked over, and the rest - but we don't see that pain. Whereas FaWS is at least so far all about that pain, all about the aggressions Sam faces every day, about how the US had a black supersoldier and put him in jail for 30 years. That's a far less rosy view.

[DaveSumm]

I enjoyed this episode, although it didn’t really feel like the same show as the first episode. None of the character plots carried through really (Bucky’s friend, Sam’s boat). I actually really like how they’ve approached new Cap, it’d be easy to make a really obvious jerk but it’s a bit more subtle. He does some good and genuinely thinks he’s a good guy, but there are smaller tells that he’s just not selfless enough to truly be Cap. The therapy scene was weird, I didn’t follow at all the logic that lead there ... it was basically ‘OK guys, time for the comedy therapy scene, follow me please’. 

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

I have to say that the scene where the cops stop Sam was very uncomfortable and very clearly meant to be, and good on Disney for tackling that issue head-on and not dancing around it.

Agreed, although so far it’s not integrating into the plot particularly. Maybe they’re going somewhere with why Sam didn’t take up the mantle? 

[Poobah]

24 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

 also being 100% right helped make that sympathetic.

Don't wanna get too derailed here, but while it's obvious to anyone who isn't a total asshole that racism is bad and he certainly had a point about Wakanda's isolationism being a problem his conquer and subjugate the world plan isn't what I'd call right. Also yeah to @polishgenius point that Black Panther is a staggeringly America-focused film for being one who's plot is mostly about an African nation and people from it.

35 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Whereas FaWS is at least so far all about that pain, all about the aggressions Sam faces every day, about how the US had a black supersoldier and put him in jail for 30 years. That's a far less rosy view.

I do agree that this is a much harsher and more uncomfortable look at the actual realities of racism.

I'm very on-side with the Flagsmashers right now. I really hope they remain sympathetic and reasonable in their ideology, goals, and actions and don't get flipped to some "derp just terrorists" thing, there's some suggestion here that this Power Broker figure is gonna be the real villain of the piece so I have hope. I do wonder though how far Disney/Marvel are willing to go to sorta "change the world" from the familiar, they do keep hinting at things but for all the advanced technology our heroes use, for all the horrific events and upheavals, for all the revelations that humanity has witnessed... it does seem that earth is largely unchanged same shit as always, same people getting fucked, same people on top of the pile.

[RumHam]

Does it make sense that they're going to Zemo for Hydra info? As I recall he did not work for them and got his information from what Natasha leaked in Winter Soldier. Then he got the location of that bunker from Bucky. He never got any information out of the Hydra guy he killed. 

[Werthead]

12 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Does it make sense that they're going to Zemo for Hydra info? As I recall he did not work for them and got his information from what Natasha leaked in Winter Soldier. Then he got the location of that bunker from Bucky. He never got any information out of the Hydra guy he killed. 

I was expecting to hear that Zemo had escaped or even just been released during the blip years (if he wasn't blipped himself) and would show up as a villain, not as the Hannibal Lector of the piece. That's interesting.

[DaveSumm]

26 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Does it make sense that they're going to Zemo for Hydra info? As I recall he did not work for them and got his information from what Natasha leaked in Winter Soldier. Then he got the location of that bunker from Bucky. He never got any information out of the Hydra guy he killed. 

He was asking the Hydra guy for a mission report on the day of Tony’s parents murder. Which would imply he doesn’t already know that information, so it couldn’t have been in the stuff that Natasha leaked. I guess he’d been going round gathering information on general hydra stuff for a while.

[mormont]

9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I guess the question for me about new Cap is whether his sidekick will also go all in on becoming one of the US government's leading instruments of oppression, or will he see the light. I guess they had to give him a black friend lest he become a symbol of the real life racist nationalists. He'll just be a symbol of real life not-racist nationalists.

Lemar was always John Walker's friend right from his introduction in the comics. Originally, as Super-Patriot, Walker had three sidekicks, called the Bold Urban Commandos (BUCkies), two white guys and Lemar, but Lemar is the only one who passed the background check to continue that role he became Cap. He becomes Battlestar after a black soldier takes him aside and points out the terrible optics of calling a black man in a subordinate role to a white man 'Bucky'. The scene was actually inspired by Dwayne McDuffie making the same point to Mark Gruenwald. 

The element they've introduced here is the non-white girlfriend (? I assume), which I imagine is for the same reason: a black best friend/sidekick isn't really a good way to avoid racist associations.

8 hours ago, Rhom said:

Since I'm not familiar with the deeper Marvel lore, was Isaiah someone with a name in the comics?

Yeah. He was Captain America.

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Agreed, although so far it’s not integrating into the plot particularly. Maybe they’re going somewhere with why Sam didn’t take up the mantle? 

With the definite emphasis on raising questions of race in Sam's story, I imagine that's what's going to be the underlying reason. Sam more or less alludes to that when he says that maybe neither Steve nor Bucky would understand.

And that makes sense. To ask a black man to take up the role of a living symbol of America is a bigger thing than Steve could probably understand. The emotional weight of it, in a country that treats Sam the way we see him treated in these two episodes, would be enormous.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Does it make sense that they're going to Zemo for Hydra info? As I recall he did not work for them and got his information from what Natasha leaked in Winter Soldier. Then he got the location of that bunker from Bucky. He never got any information out of the Hydra guy he killed. 

He got that that book from the Hydra guy in Cleveland at the beginning of Civil War.  The little red book gives him the words to activate Bucky, and presumably there's more information in that book.  I think it makes sense in universe for Bucky to think Zemo is the only one alive who knows more about Hydra than him.