Jump to content

Law Enforcement and its abuse of power


Ser Scot A Ellison
 Share

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

If I may ask innocently, does this also mean there's an opposition to a police presence at Pride parades/events for security reasons, not just being involved in the actual event?

I'd say you're seeing that in the component of this decision that the police presence around the pride parade will be a full block away, so yes. 

The whole conversation around pride marches etc and their acceptance of not just law enforcement participation but also corporate involvement is a very involved one and well beyond the remit of this thread. What is in the scope of this thread is that those who most need pride are also the ones with the strongest reason to fear police, and the last year has hardly improved community-cop relations. 

Varys I don't think there's anything further to discuss, we just fundamentally disagree on this. They've been involved and it hasn't been helping, this year seems like a good one to have the priorities they're showing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ah, I would not call those cops good. However for the ones who do not stay silent I think it’s unfair and unproductive to pretend that they are.

How often do cops come out and say there are those of their own who commit crimes and arrest and charge them without facing enormous public pressure first?

I mean, the most high-profile case recently was George Floyd, right? A cop had Floyd lying face-down on the street, hand-cuffed and STILL held his knee on his neck with four other police officers around and not a single one of them said anything about it. Call me cynical, but I'm quite sure it would've been fudged somehow to be presented as justified if it wasn't caught on video that went viral. I'm quite sure those four cops would back the killer's story.

I think Chris Rock said it best in one of his specials - police violence is nothing new, it's the phone cameras that are new. Police force is not reforming, they are just in damage-control mode more often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, baxus said:

How often do cops come out and say there are those of their own who commit crimes and arrest and charge them without facing enormous public pressure first?

Not nearly enough certainly, but for the ones who do they’re good in my opinion.

4 minutes ago, baxus said:

mean, the most high-profile case recently was George Floyd, right? A cop had Floyd lying face-down on the street, hand-cuffed and STILL held his knee on his neck with four other police officers around and not a single one of them said anything about it. Call me cynical, but I'm quite sure it would've been fudged somehow to be presented as justified if it wasn't caught on video that went viral. I'm quite sure those four cops would back the killer's story.

I share your sentiments quite frankly.

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

I think Chris Rock said it best in one of his specials - police violence is nothing new, it's the phone cameras that are new. Police force is not reforming, they are just in damage-control mode more often.

I would agree with the first and say the goal need be adequate reformation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also here in NYC the cops are off the hook not doing the jobs they are supposed to do -- just refusing to, while whaling on whomever they feel like.  They cannot be trusted for anything at all.

Last night the monsters who own the restaurant on one side of us literally blew up the entire community with seismic LOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDD. Even the other restaurants on the block who are always being complained about for noise, blocking fire hydrants, etc. were appalled because this level of LOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUD out-louded theirs, and their customers were leaving.

This is totally illegal according to city laws -- no live music.  Cops flat out told me they weren't doing anything as it wasn't a crime, and they worked for those who owned the city, i.e. restaurants-real estate, and not for us, who live here.  THEY TOLD ME THIS TO MY FACE, and they told me this on the phone too, several times.  I suppose they destroyed those phone recordings ....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I can’t speak for the LGBTQA community, but I have been told by many members of it that cops are not welcome at Pride in their professional capacity or in uniform for these reasons-

—LGBTQA people, those of color and those who are trans specifically, are at greater risk for being victims of police violence than their straight or cis or white counterparts. Many attendees would feel less safe with police presence.

-Pride commemorates Stonewall, wherein police were an antagonist against the community. It is not historically appropriate to bring the uniform into that celebration.

 

This parade is in a public area?  The ban is on “participation”?  

Because I’m unsure as to how a private organization would have the power to prohibit law enforcement, in their offical capacity as agents of the State, from being in a public locale given that I believe the parade is taking place in a public place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

This parade is in a public area?  The ban is on “participation”?  

Because I’m unsure as to how a private organization would have the power to prohibit law enforcement, in their offical capacity as agents of the State, from being in a public locale given that I believe the parade is taking place in a public place.

They can’t ban them from entry, but they can deny applications for a parade entry or a booth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s what I suspected.  Thank you.

Many pride celebrations have hired out security from police before, and many police departments have an entry in the parade and march in it for pr/community outreach- this is not only, or even not mostly officers who are LGBTQA. News media makes this about LGBTQA officers, but police involvement in Pride is rarely that. It’s mostly Police Departments using it as a place to polish their image (corporations do tons of this too and that’s a controversial topic), or policing it as a large gathering. If I had a large event of any kind, I know I wouldn’t want to let the Minneapolis PD use it as an opportunity to look good and friendly to my community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I know I wouldn’t want to let the Minneapolis PD use it as an opportunity to look good and friendly to my community.

Do you want to improve the police’s relationship with marginalized communities?

Of course you do. 
But how are you going to accomplish this  simply rebuffing even the most simple attempts at community outreach?

Throughout this conversation I don’t think anyone has actually explained how this could lead to any lessening of toxic behavior from law-enforcement or coax them to do better.

6 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

corporations do tons of this too and that’s a controversial topic)

Yeah partly because many on the left in my opinion are really suck at appropriating/maintaining venues of power. 
Like with LE. Just leave it to be infested exploited by the far right whilst they scurry away from LEmas if that’d fix the problems within law-enforcement.
Some Corporations have gotten a public pro-LGBT stance to better market their goods.

Which really can only help normalize the LGBT community.

Hashbro released a lgbt themed play set—because they want money. 

The intent is less important than the actual consequences.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Fez said:

So he doesn't give proof in the article itself (and also it is Andrew Sullivan), but supposedly

 

Hmm I haven’t found a lot of actual polling surrounding members of LGBT views of this from what I’ve been able to find the majority are fine with it.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/lgbtq-poll-pride-month-cops-coprorations

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You want to do outreach? Reform policing. Let police and policing make some changes that merits outreach. It's not on the marginalized communities that have continually been abused by policing to welcome the same old same old into their spaces. 

If you spend 364 days a year abusing a community why on earth would you expect to be welcome among them for a few hours on the 365th? Especially to go back to abusing the community once the festivities are over?

Edited by kairparavel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do you want to improve the police’s relationship with marginalized communities?

Of course you do. 
But how are you going to accomplish this  simply rebuffing even the most simple attempts at community outreach?

Throughout this conversation I don’t think anyone has actually explained how this could lead to any lessening of toxic behavior from law-enforcement or coax them to do better.

Yeah partly because many on the left in my opinion are really suck at appropriating/maintaining venues of power. 
Like with LE. Just leave it to be infested exploited by the far right whilst they scurry away from LEmas if that’d fix the problems within law-enforcement.
Some Corporations have gotten a public pro-LGBT stance to better market their goods.

Which really can only help normalize the LGBT community.

Hashbro released a lgbt themed play set—because they want money. 

The intent is less important than the actual consequences.

I think the police can improve their relationship with the LGBTQA community by doing more about violence against trans women, for starters. 
 

I think the police can improve their relationship with all marginalized communities by ending qualified immunity.

Then, maybe they can expect to be invited to more parties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I think the police can improve their relationship with the LGBTQA community by doing more about violence against trans women, for starters. 
 

I think the police can improve their relationship with all marginalized communities by ending qualified immunity.

Then, maybe they can expect to be invited to more parties. 

That didn’t actually answer my question.

How is barring them from actually trying to do community outreach like well participating in parades going to incentivize them to implement changes you’d want?

Also does the amount of people in the community who actually agree with your sentiments matter?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/lgbtq-poll-pride-month-cops-coprorations

Because most seem to be more than comfortable with police on this.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That didn’t actually answer my question.

How is barring them from actually trying to do community outreach like well participating in parades going to incentivize them to implement changes you’d want?

Also does the amount of people in the community who actually agree with your sentiments matter?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/lgbtq-poll-pride-month-cops-coprorations

Because most seem to be more than comfortable with police on this.

It helps because it doesn’t allow them to give the appearance of outreach without making a meaningful effort. Window dressing isn’t just unhelpful, it keeps real work from getting done. You will find it is not just the LGBTQA community that sometimes decides this.

And I am not telling the LGBTQA community what to do with Pride -at all-. I am not part of that community, I’m just explaining that I understand where people who feel this way are coming from. I am all for whatever each community wants to do for their own Pride celebration and fully support their ability to make those choices without those of us outside the community butting in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fury Resurrected said:

It helps because it doesn’t allow them to give the appearance of outreach without making a meaningful effort. Window dressing isn’t just unhelpful, it keeps real work from getting done.

I don’t see that reasoning as sound quite frankly. Exclusion doesn’t incentive them to try more. 
It just signals that it’s better to not touch upon the issues.

It kinda rebuffs the chance to appeal to some demographics who are more likely to be pro-cop but are not going to find a lot of flash at pride parades endearing or see themselves relating to the LGBT community as the typical urbanite college graduate might.

Which in turn makes it easier to leverage public support to force the police to do better in regards to the LGBT community. 

1 hour ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I am all for whatever each community wants to do for their own Pride celebration and fully support their ability to make those choices without those of us outside the community butting in.

Again bi here.

But I don’t think this was done after truly trying to gage general community sentiments.

More acting like a few people thinking their own sentiments around the issue have to be the norm without checking.

Like they referenced bipoc supposedly being made uncomfortable with a police presence in their rationale but most communities of color don’t want less of a police presence in their communities in general.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.asp

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t see that reasoning as sound quite frankly. Exclusion doesn’t incentive them to try more. 
It just signals that it’s better to not touch upon the issues.

It kinda rebuffs the chance to appeal to some demographics who are more likely to be pro-cop but are not going to find a lot of flash at pride parades endearing or see themselves relating to the LGBT community as the typical urbanite college graduate might.

Which in turn makes it easier to leverage public support to force the police to do better in regards to the LGBT community. 

Again bi here.

But I don’t think this was done after truly trying to gage general community sentiments.

More acting like a few people thinking their own sentiments around the issue have to be the norm without checking.

Like they referenced bipoc supposedly being made uncomfortable with a police presence in their rationale but most communities of color don’t want less of a police presence in their communities in general.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.asp

That poll doesn’t speak to the LGBTQA BIPOC community in New York City, which is the Pride in question. Pride is a locality by locality thing, and I don’t know why it should be big news for people outside that community to weigh in on. I know we have a few LGBTQA boarders in that city and perhaps one of them will weigh in on it. But I don’t see any case for not letting that community plan it’s celebration however they want and communities who wanna welcome police can plan theirs in their way.
 

As for you thinking lip service and window dressing are helpful steps, we simply disagree on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

That poll doesn’t speak to the LGBTQA BIPOC community in New York City, which is the Pride in question.

I think dismissing the poll because it wasn’t done specifically of LGBTQ BIPoc folk in New York specifically is wrong.

It does serve to general trend for general sentiments of the LGBT community in regards to police being included in pride parades. The evidence seems to be most Most members of the lgbt community liking it or not having a problem with it.

25 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Pride is a locality by locality thing, and I don’t know why it should be big news for people outside that community to weigh in on.

There have been gay cop groups have weighed in on the situation and vehemently condemned the decision from leadership in NY.

Besides such events aren’t meant to be done isolation. They’re meant to make noise, get attention tell the world there hear.

25 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I know we have a few LGBTQA boarders in that city and perhaps one of them will weigh in on it.

Such as me. I don’t speak for the community of course, I know this. I’m just giving a rationale for why I see this development to be wrong.

25 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

But I don’t see any case for not letting that community plan it’s celebration however they want and communities who wanna welcome police can plan theirs in their way.

I’m not proposing a law here mandating all events have a float dedicated towards exalting police.
 

25 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

As for you thinking lip service and window dressing are helpful steps, we simply disagree on that.

I did not say that . I disagree with the idea that police particularly the gay members of it participating in pride parades is just window dressing that serves as an impediment to real social change
I think I made it fairly clear I see such inclusion as a way to foster positivity from demographics that are less likely to be accepting of the lgbt but are more pro-cop.

The flamboyance aesthetic that many parade goers won’t speak to them as clearly because they find it harder to envision that someone in their life or someone they’d want to be around. But cops? Priests? US military Veterans? A bit more I think.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think dismissing the poll because it wasn’t done specifically of LGBTQ BIPoc folk in New York specifically is wrong.

It does serve to general trend for general sentiments of the LGBT community in regards to police being included in pride parades. The evidence seems to be most Most members of the lgbt community liking it or not having a problem with it.

There have been gay cop groups have weighed in on the situation and vehemently condemned the decision from leadership in NY.

Besides such events aren’t meant to be done isolation. They’re meant to make noise, get attention tell the world there hear.

Such as me. I don’t speak for the community of course, I know this. I’m just giving a rationale for why I see this development to be wrong.

I’m not proposing a law here mandating all events have a float dedicated towards exalting police.
 

I did not say that . I disagree with the idea that police particularly the gay members of it participating in pride parades is just window dressing that serves as an impediment to real social change
I think I made it fairly clear I see such inclusion as a way to foster positivity from demographics that are less likely to be accepting of the lgbt but are more pro-cop.

The flamboyance aesthetic that many parade goers won’t speak to them as clearly because they find it harder to envision that someone in their life or someone they’d want to be around. But cops? Priests? US military Veterans? A bit more I think.

 

If you’re in the area I totally think the planning committee should hear your thoughts. Like I said- I think the pride of each city should be that community’s business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New York City's Pride Parade is national and global, as well as local.  People start arriving for Pride way before The Day and the Parade.  The celebrations escalate in number, numbers, and noise for about a month.

 

Edited by Zorral
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...